Graviteam

I am once again working on this plane model.  No idea what I will do with if it EVER gets done.  Started on it like 2 years ago and just about everything that can go wrong while modeling a plane on a computer did in fact go wrong.  But its SO dang close to complete seems stupid to let it just sit there doing nothing. 

The model is not perfect and has some rocky areas, but over all I think its a decent low poly model.  Right now I am dumping the 1024 X 2048 texture size and going with a full 2048 X 2048 (same as tanks in GTOS).  this means I am pretty much loosing and throwing out the old vary far along normal maps I had done for this thing.  But hoping to be able to add in more details into the textures. 

But in last summers computer melt down I lost all my links and reference info.  And I can not seem to find what I am after now.  Every damned search I do gives me stupid war thunder stuff....LOL. 

What I have now is not good for reference.  Need everything from photos of air craft that show the right panel  details for the fuselage, to tire tread patterns.  Also no idea about proper squadron info for areas in GTOS or maybe even Mius.  Although for mid 1943 I have no idea how many of these things where still fighting.  Maybe none in the area. 

If anyone can help PLEASE post stuff!!!   :P


Once I complete the new unwrapping job I'll post a few screens..... 

If this thing ever gets done I want to do a FLak 30 or 38 next.   :-X  Have all the junk I need to make a good one. 

Oh also have HUGE conflicting info on armaments.  Some say only 4 wing 7.62.  Some say 2.  Some say 20mm cannon in nose and 2 -4 7.62 guns in wing.  I have no idea how many bombs fit in the little bomb bay.   UGH. 

But for rear guns only planning on the turret with the 1 7.62 mg and ignoring the bottom often not fit gun. 

If you have seen the older version with 60 percent complete normal maps this will look pretty plain.  Well it is!  But the end result I hope will be a better looking plane....if I ever finish this stupid thing.  Since doing this I threw out 20 hours of work.. Redoing what was done however should take less than 1/2 that as I know what exactly to do this go around.  Just everything else..  Any how.  Everything is the unwrapping except the canopy.  Its just over 9000 triangles with the uber basic landing gear (thats primarily for the encyclopedia so I really don't care if does not look to uber.  Although I want to make landing gear and landing gear doors able to be shot off.  In which case some ugly low polygon wheels will fall off this thing.   :P

Just have to finish unwrapping the canopy...AGAIN... UGH did something stupid at some point and screwed the old unwrapping up  :'(.  Fix a few yucks.  Then remake the normal maps of all those billions of rivets again.  Hopefully i can recycle a few things like panels andd that sort of stuff from my old normal map template.  Gawd I hope so.... Oh and need to add the mount for the rear gun there.  Something i have no good photos of.  And at least the pilots bombing sight.  But not going over 9500 triangles.  Oh and I need to make the external bomb racks on the wings.  I did make a basic little bomb bay that this plane has.  Looks like it can only carry 2 decent sized bombs internally. But I don't have any freaking idea what goes in there.  LOL. 


(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/uber_flash_pants/su2july1314_zpse4a8d85d.jpg) (http://s120.photobucket.com/user/uber_flash_pants/media/su2july1314_zpse4a8d85d.jpg.html)

I'll be able to help with information in a few days. Right now I can say that this plane is perfect for Shilovo (I am not sure IL-2 were there in July'42), also it would be suitable for every polygon in 1941 (Taranovka'41 , Mius'41 and etc). Il 2, at least around current and possible maps was quite rare in 1941 and in the first part of 42. Main workhorse as light bomber was Su-2 and I-153 as low-flying attack aircraft.

All Flaks are very welcom too :)) They were used alot by Germans as tow and self-proppeled guns. I can't imagine Mius'43 with out it :( , also Shilovo, Rakitnoe and Krasnaya Polyana. :(

I really do think lite flak guns would add a little something.  Since they of course can shoot at air craft, but also are useful to shoot at stuff on the ground. 

One thing I dont get about the su2 is that its loss rate per sortie where a far bit less than many other ground attack and lite bomber air craft.  Notably the IL-2 which would last on average about 20 missions before being shot down.  The SU-2 was closer to 35 missions until shot down. Yet we are left to believe that these things where falling out of the sky at a much higher rate.  In fact it looks  like the SU2's loss rates where closer to the PE-2. 

Now if they had stuck the 2100 horse power engine it was suppose to have in it might have been quite the useful early war lite bomber.  I guess on paper it looks like the SU-2 and Sukhoi just was not popular with Stalin?  The never made su6 looked like a solid little plane at least.  I wonder if it had more to due with the factories getting over run and politics than anything else.     

It looks like you're making the original Su-2 model with the 4 mgs and the ball turret which was effectivly a BB-1 with a better engine.
It had room for 4 100kg bombs in the bomb bay and another 1 on each wing but that would overload it so 4 was the norm.
The 2 mg model was a 41 update of it with the oil system rearranged and a cheaper turret.
The 20mm model doesn't seem to exist outside of a possible prototype thing.

The il-2 was probably chosen over it for its cannons, armour and larger payload which meant it could inflict more damage but it also would have to fly lower to use its guns so it got shot down more?

I am debating about also doing the su2 with M82 engine (sometime known as SU4).  But bulk of production was this guy so...

Well i dont think you would really want to try and bomb tanks with this sort of thing.  But supply areas or bunched up targets this thing to me seems like a decent choice.

As of this moment I am vary curious is this was used as an observation and sometime lite attack aircraft after 43.  It did have a decent radio and the camera bit..not on this one but could be certainly has some use even if no longer a front line bomber. 

I do want to point out that the SU2 did have 9mm of armor plate for the pilot.   ;D  Dont know what the IL2 had but I am guessing about the same.  But ya, the cannons of the il2 are more in line with attacking armor.  BUT that thing was so slow. 

I have floated the idea of also making an FW189 Owl.  In fact that was the first plan I had.  That is using one 2048 x 2048 texture for both planes.  Its just such a weird little thing. Idea was sort of parallel to the po-2.

But as of NOW... I want to get back to making some ground vehicles.  Low poly air craft are an interesting challenge but not my main interest.  Vehicles like tanks are actually way easier to make IMO.  But I get tripped up trying to make em perfect.  Less picky with air craft and that's why I have made a few. 

But a better JU87 with those crazy cannon pods certainly sounds fun.  LOL. 

DOH 87 not 88 

The Su4 was never built afaik. 
Also the Su2 I don't think was still in normal service by late 43,  I guess on the Russian side the only fitting plane we don't have is a Pe-2 variant or a fighter.
But as you said this is a ground game and ground units are more fun! 
You were talking about some light AA guns before, they'd defiantly fit in and add to the game.  The Mius line probably had many 2cm and 3.7cm aa guns that could be used against ground and air.

The way I see it there are 2 weaknesses in GTOS.  REcon aspect which is pretty basic but an extremely important part of modern warfare and tactical air stuff.  We don't have any AAA assets of the battlefield tactical sort.  Both sides had em, not in this Graviteam game.  They are in good old K42 however.  Now no 88 or 85mm gun are going to be engaging low flying air craft.  Its way to short range for those big fat things.  And light automatic cannons are certainly duel use in the close range.  AS a mod dude making more tanks when that is SO covered is not plugging a hole.  With Mius and towable guns it does open somethings up that would be pretty useless in GTOS......

If we talk about Mius'43 or the other polygon of the Southern Front from may'43 to feb'44 as bombers there were PE-2 and A-20 Boston, so no SU-2. However, there were 8th separate air recon regiment which also did bomb runs, as I remember it had PE-2 in 43 - 44, but in June-July 42 it had only SU-2.

AHHHH the Boston/Havoc.  Now we are talking!   :P

Have a soft spot for that thing.  A pretty decent early war plane that ended getting used for the whole thing by everyone.  That I maybe might have to do.....  PE-2's are pretty nifty too.  But A20 beats it for me...

Could you find out what sort they where using in the Mius time frame.  Maybe do that one someday. 

PLease tell me the Red Air Force was using early model A20G models with the 20mm cannons in the ground attack role.   :P

It's possible.  ;D Although I can't say what Bostons were exactly on the Mius-Front, G-1 started to come to USSR in the summer or spring 43. In october 43 there were already G-20.

Anyway it was either A-20B or G-1. But, it was very seldom used as ground-attack plane (I mean to fight tanks, frontline positions). For that role we had IL-2 as A-20 was very vulnarable to AA fire (at least Red Air Forсe Command thought so). A-20 was premilary used as bomber or recon plane most of all. At the same time in the Mius July'43 operation PE-2 & A-20 was very widely used to attack german front positions, tanks and arty battareis, but they bombed them from 3000 meters.


FW-189 also a fine plane for the game. I see them in many front line troops reports, more often than Ju-87 in current game polygons. They were very annoing for the red troops cause of bomb attacks, something like U-2 but as a day bomber.

About Ju-87G-1 ... seems I saw somewhere a reliable report about their actions either in the Mius July'43 or Charkov Aug'43 (Taranovka, Sokolovo and so on).

Sorry, no A-20G-1 on the Mius.  :(  Not a single 20mm was fired by the 270th Bomber Division, only brownings in the July and August 43.

ON the Fw189 that is kind of what I thought might be the case.  Those things where right behind the lines just like the PO-2.  Not a vary effective ground attack platform, but should be vary easy to harass ground units.

Only the A20 G model would be remotely effective as a direct ground attack air plane.  The rest where all set up as light horizontal bombers.  But all the early mark 4 20mm cannon ones made went the USSR.    I would think that thing would make a totally crappy horizontal bomber as no bombardier.  So likely if you see a A20 G in a unit in 1943 it most likely these vary few in number early first run 20mm sorts and not the ones with 6 - 8 .50 caliber machine guns.  Could be where they went, OH this thing is not as survivable as IL-2.   ;D  Since what the this mark of a20 had over an il2 was speed.  Probably 150 km faster.  But ya, armor, no not really.  

Assuming an a20 where to be made by me AND for GTOS/Mius for what the game is, it needs to be the direct ground attack version.  The light bomber version for the reasons you stated are not suitable.  And since the only version with the 4 vary large 20mm cannons where sticking out of the nose where all on the eastern front I vote for that as you will never see that in other games have the A20.  



AND...does anyone have a good pic of the front of the SU 2 hopefully without the prop fit?   Need to find something where the engine is sort of visible from the front.  

NOOOOOOO :'(  Its the coolest one.  BOOHOO

Well the SU2, despite me looking up way to much info on the A20 G model, now has completed redone UVW unwrapping.   ;D

Now if I can actually find a good photo of the pilots bomb sight thing and how the heck the rear MG is mounted in its turret.  Then off to start in on the new textures.  OOOOOHHHH exciting..

Some SU-2 photos could be found here (3 pages):
http://wunderwafe.ru/WeaponBook/Avia/Su2/Pictures/page_01.htm
http://wunderwafe.ru/WeaponBook/Avia/Su2/Pictures/page_02.htm
http://wunderwafe.ru/WeaponBook/Avia/Su2/Pictures/page_03.htm

For instance bomb loads:
http://wunderwafe.ru/WeaponBook/Avia/Su2/Pictures/10.jpg
http://wunderwafe.ru/WeaponBook/Avia/Su2/Pictures/19.jpg

About armament.

Officially Su-2M-88B had 5 MG (SHKAS) but it seems 2 wing sometimes were removed to increase bombload.
The data according to the Research and testing institute of Red Army Air Force (NII VVS KA):

Su-2M-88B №16/2 and №20/2 January 1941 - 4 wing 7.62 shkas with 3400 bullets
Su-2M-88B №1/6modified February 1941 - 2 wing 7.62 shkas with 1700 bullets
Su-2M-88B №070T29 June 1941 - 2 wing 7.62 shkas with 2400 bullets
Su-2M-82 №15116 April 1942 - 4 wing 7.62 shkas with 3400 bullets

Turret Shkas of M-88B had 900 bullets, of M-82 had 1500 bullets.

Yes those pictures are just what I needed. 

Nothing remotely decent was popping up for me.  I was just thinking... I bet if I stuck cy2 in Cyrillic I would be swimming in stuff.   :P  Its so late in the modeling bit that there WILL be wrong stuff in this.  =(  Hopefully as a low poly model no one will care. 

Ok so 4 FAB 100's in the bomb bay.  Certainly not alot, but with a bunch of buddies with you could mess some stuff up.  And then probably another 2 on the wings. 


WOOO..  did not realize how far back the radial engine was in the cowling.

Hmm those bomb racks for the 4 fab 50 or 100's for the wings are VARY interesting.....

the model is looking great so far, how long in man hours did that take you? and how many more until you complete it, best estimate?

As you know I have just started at the bottom of the ladder with 3D model making and so far I have made.....*drumroll* - *TA-DAAAAA!!!* nothing lol, still learning the basic controls

About loads:

(http://geekpic.net/dt-O5569T.jpg) (http://geekpic.net/pm-O5569T.html)

(http://geekpic.net/dt-OFS881.jpg) (http://geekpic.net/pm-OFS881.html)

Sorry for some misprints   ;D

This one?  I really dont know.  Everything went wrong with this.  Including my computer nearly melting down. 

But usually a decent 10k model by itself from legit reference material is just under a week.  Usually a full week for model and unwrap and then another for textures and fixing problems. 

But it varies.  And depends on how much your after.  That F5 I made for Sabow and is also in Shield of the prophet was vary little time.  The textures where 2 evening. And not even full ones.  It shows.   :P

I made a quick Ah1 J model that is okish in about 9 or 10 hours.  Alot of that was looking of for photos.  But on the flip side my m38 jeep which is STILL NOT DONE.   Has easily eaten more than 3 solid weeks.  But granted with the m38 and m38C jeeps I lost motivation as they would offer NOTHING to the game right now.  For shield of the prophet they would just blow up and that is about it. 

Making tanks with interiors is really freaking time consuming.  But that is something else. 

Basic things at first take quite awhile.  but as you challenge yourself you get way faster.  My 1st serious model attempt was an Ak thingie rifle.  I must have spent a month on it.  And it was just OK.  Now a 5k firearm model with textures that would actually be good would probably be 5 days.  Maybe less.  Made a Hatsan escort shotgun with retractable stock in maybe 3 or 4 days in January. 

The G3 rifle in shield was like maybe 5 or 6 hours.  Was not much at all.  But not exactly a huge thing.  And a real low poly model.

This SU2 has been threw alot.  It will be ok in the end.  Now I am pretty much using it as a test bed to see how much detail I can dump into its textures.  Also a few other things I want to try out. 

I dont even know what those AO series are....

But I think aiming at a bunch of FAB 100's makes sense. 

AO - antipersonal. Was widely used. The number is the weight. For example AO-25 = 25 kg antipersonal bomb. In general like german SD-1, 2, 10 and up to SD-50. In the WW2 AO-2.5 was made of rejected 45mm shell, AO-8 of 76.2mm shell, AO-25 from 122mm shell.

Ahhh. makes sense. Would be interesting to watch a flight of SU 2's dump a zillion little bombs...

Ok so what is the KD-2 bomb rack able to carry?   Or did I not see that info?  Always possible as I am bouncing all over the place between things.  :D

ERRR Never mind..  DUH the diagram .   ;D ;D ;D ;D

Shab 25 what is that?  Of XAB 25 stupid keyboard. 


Ill whip up a basic KD2 rack now.  Maybe make the KD1 later.  Hope I can guess the right proportions. 

Hehe. I've tested such thing for the O&E mod.

92xSD-2  ;D

(http://geekpic.net/dt-CK0YFB.jpg) (http://geekpic.net/pm-CK0YFB.html)

(http://geekpic.net/dt-BIN25N.jpg) (http://geekpic.net/pm-BIN25N.html)

(http://geekpic.net/dt-0V4FN8.jpg) (http://geekpic.net/pm-0V4FN8.html)

The funny thing that right now I fail to make them spread widely. Only about 20m, otherwise Ju-87 will start to climb while still throwing them down  >:(
When they come very narrow and approximitely at the same time my computer turns in-game speed to 0.1x :) for 5 - 10 seconds  ;D But I have i7, 1Gb video and 16GB Ram  ;D

The second ingame bug that planes always throw bombs ~ 38-40 meters forward the target and almost always hit the same point from the target. Seems dispercion and aiming error works not well with planes .... actually I asked Andrey about these issues ... but I've decided to postpone adding cluster bombs in the mod...

However, 10 - 15 SD-10 doesn't affect game speed (at least my)...still that inaccurate  >:(

To many explosion patterns going on at 1 time.  Ok.. wont do that.   ;D

YA the planes climbing to soon is often a odd issue.  Like when a plane uses cannons and suddenly pitches up firing for a couple more seconds.  Makes sense dumping a string of bombs it would do the same thing. 

Chemiсal/gas, with nerve gases, poisons and so on...was not used in WWII.

It seems that Su-2 variant with rockets carried 10 pieces as on those photos. 8 rockets it is a pre war variant.

Well, in July's '43 Mius IL-2 has used over 30.000 (for a half of the month) PTAB-2.5kg (HEAT bomb). In comparison to 3.500 FAB100 and about 800 FAB50. (AO25-2.5 7.000 by Il-2 + 10.500 by U-2).

They were in clusters .... probably devs will think over some current bomb problems  ;)

It looks like the bomb rack for the internal bay is the same as external rack?  Is that right?  In which case I may have made the internal bay way to shallow.  But all i had to go off was a bad picture there too.  UGH. 

Well yes it is...  So max load is 600 kg.  So perhaps for main load out, maybe worry about more later.  4 100 FAB's in internal bay and 4 50kg fab's external.

If the light AO bombs get sorted perhaps fill the bomb bay will a whole bunch of the little ones and a couple regular fab 100's external? 

UGH... spending all my time trying to figure out this stupid bomb rack. 

SO I am guessing that it is made to hold 4 100 kg bombs on mid area.  Or up to 8 50 kg bombs on the out side portion.  Or of course similar bombs of equal weight.  Now its starting to click.  Ya Im slow right now.  The bomb rack can be mounted internal in the bay and OR 2 external on the under wings.  This sound about right?

No that does not look right either.  Clearly I am a ww2 bomb rack retard.

MAN I'm a slow kid today...

For the SU2 to fly a MAX bomb load using FAB bombs its 3 KD-2 racks with 4 FAB 50's each.  OR it looks like pretty much just 4 FAB 100's in internal bay.  Unless using the lighter little AO bombs and  doing some weird mixing of bombs.  Like 4 FAB 50's internal with a bunch of little guys on the KD1.  Which basically means your usually just flying 4 FAB 100's and likely why the SU2 ACTUALLY went away.  4 7.62 mg's and 4 bombs is not a vary useful combo.  Posted losses where never as high as other air craft.  As a bomber without a bombardier your 4 bombs are probably not hitting anywhere close.  ANd strafing killing a truck will be a challenge let alone an AFV.  Probably killing its driver but likely the truck could be repaired or simply driven away with more holes than before. 

(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/uber_flash_pants/su2july142_zps936f6da3.jpg) (http://s120.photobucket.com/user/uber_flash_pants/media/su2july142_zps936f6da3.jpg.html)

Model in external model viewer to see all the issues that need to get sorted and a quick test to make sure normal will work right.  And of course they will...  Also since AGA's pics he found made some improvements here and there.  Now all set to redo all the damned rivets again.   :P

Did you still need the tyre texture?

Ya would be nice.  Its just a BONUS!  But I am guessing its general aviation sort.  Basically straight lines.

Well this morning and one of the things I have been meaning to mess around with, was to use the paint feature of autodesk mudbox  to apply some basic color to the model.  Well...I hate it.  Potentially something like this could be a massive time saver but unless I am missing something with the basic paints tools...well there basic!  If there is a way way to control flow and brush styles I have not found it.  there probably is... But even then, not so great.  Its just the issue of applying "paint" real time to curved complex surfaces.  It just always gets it not quite right.  Newer photoshop CS's also are starting get this capability and with similar woes.   

I guess as of now the old try and fix method of just paint in PS and apply to model or simply hack the crap out of the model and use the modified UVW mapping as guide is still IMO better. 

Sorry Flashurn, no A20G-1 at all in the current and possible maps. Have carefully checked all monthly reports of the 8th Air Army (Southern/4-th Ukrainian Front) from July 43 to Feb 44 (Partly Taranovka/Sokolovo august 43, Mius and etc.). Only  A-20B were there as line bombers but it seems as soon as it was possible they were substituted with PE-2. That A-20 was to vulnurable to ground fire.

Wonder where all those A20G's went too?  Someone hand them.  Indeed the A20 was not an ideal mid or late war plane.  But was quite good for what it was in 1940.  As it was quite fast.  Able to match many fighters speed at the outset. Its follow on A26 invader was in the US inventory to Vietnam.  Which tells you they took what worked and what did not. 

But as a suprise attack plane mounting 8 .50 cal MG's or 4 20 mm cannons, well i would not want to be under that wall of death.  Oh and carry a couple thousand pounds of bombs as well.  Ya no thank you. 

BTW did the A20B's or others come with Nordan bomb sights?   I would think cruising at 10000 meters used as fast light bombers cruising at around 330 miles an hour would be a useful thing.  Once the bombs where dropped hitting 350 to get the fook out.  I know the plane is not perfect.  There where better light bombers.  And there where better attack planes.  But was still a neat plane IMO.  Some even got to France before her fall and fought on in North Africa later. 

Have no idea what Nordan is. The tactics which was used by A20 of the 8th Air Army was line bombing from 2500 - 3500 meters or from mildly sloping dive from 3000 to 1000/800 meters. The same tactics was used by Pe-2 in that period. Steep dives was a seldom thing.

The germans did the same with HE-111 and Ju-88 which were the main attack planes on the Mius July'43.

A20's guns was used only as a defence against an enemy fighter. So, they just turnen to an enemy fighter and started firing.

The Nordan was a super duper (kind of) bomb sight for use at high altitudes in level bombing.  Well basically it just let the bombardier fly the plane with some basic mechanical aim help...  It did improve level bombing at high altitude.  How much better is open to debate.

And yes it was vulnerable to ground fire...

http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/a-20-havoc-boston/a-20g-havoc-43-9432-bevo-of-the-387th-bs-hit-by-flak-during-an-attack-on-kokas-new-guinea-22-july-1944/

I am not sure that USA supplied "The Empire of Evil" with such wonderful things   ;)

UGh in those days you guys where buds fighting the good fight.  Crap, some rich private citizens where buying tanks and planes and sending them east!  But ya that bomb sight was suppose to be super top secret.   I am sure the Germans had warehouses full of them from crashed B25, B26, A20's, B17, and B24's.  Although the bombardier was suppose to destroy the thing asap if a crash landing in occupied lands or of course Germany. Alot of men died running those early convoys to the USSR. 

But IMo political powers on both sides needed a boogie man after the Nazi's fell.  And still do.. UGh  stupid people. 

(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/uber_flash_pants/su2july15_zpsb8b4bb3e.jpg) (http://s120.photobucket.com/user/uber_flash_pants/media/su2july15_zpsb8b4bb3e.jpg.html)


Here is where IMO it starts to look worse for a bit.  Mapping out where stuff goes across the unwrapping job.  Basically if it looks jagged and weird means I have not suffered threw those bits yet.  Soon as blue is done, then tweak green to the correct shade, and finally add the black camo pattern.  Then back to rivets. ...and more rivets.  Followed by rivets. With a side of rivets. 

Wonderful

I hope it is not too late and this schemes might be usefull  ???

(http://geekpic.net/dt-FUP6ZK.jpg) (http://geekpic.net/pm-FUP6ZK.html)

(http://geekpic.net/dt-Y3L3RZ.jpg) (http://geekpic.net/pm-Y3L3RZ.html)

(http://geekpic.net/dt-S0M7SN.jpg) (http://geekpic.net/pm-S0M7SN.html)

(http://geekpic.net/dt-CNXJLU.jpg) (http://geekpic.net/pm-CNXJLU.html)

Nice info there.   ;D

Well I stuck black camo on.  Looks awful.  Need to redo the pattern.  OOOPSS

woot!

http://www.flying-legends.ru/eng/images/Su-2_at_Myseum_of_Stalingrad_Battle_4.JPG

Might try and represent some of this detail in basic texture behind the cowling.  Will not be vary exciting but better than flat black. 

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/uber_flash_pants/su2july151_zpse1ecce44.jpg

Not vary exciting and not much effort put in after the one I need stick effort in totally looked stupid.  Whatever.  looks so plain without the detail work.  and its way hot right now...and I ate these little almond roca things...it appears a lot of them.  And I want to drop dead.   ;D ;D ;D ;D

WOOO those drawing are actually BIG.  The ones I have been using I think where like 800 x 600 pixels.  NICE.  those will help.  Thanks AGA! 

Gonna stick em in my texture master and see if I speed my hot, sick feeling arse up. 

(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/uber_flash_pants/su2july152_zpse3339973.jpg) (http://s120.photobucket.com/user/uber_flash_pants/media/su2july152_zpse3339973.jpg.html)

I hope this thing works.  Right now looks like a damned cheap die cast toy.

MMMMmmmmmmmm        rivets.


Also wheel from another sim:

(http://i.imgur.com/0ld3Pc2.jpg)

Plain rubber tube with 3 stripes close together on the centre.

About what I figured.   ;D 

Will maybe make a better looking wheel for the pedia than mine.  But is so far down on the list.  This all assumes things will work out like I would like.  FOr instance.... I am not sure how to rig the bomb bay doors to actually work correct! 

(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/uber_flash_pants/su2july153_zps22f2f4a7.jpg) (http://s120.photobucket.com/user/uber_flash_pants/media/su2july153_zps22f2f4a7.jpg.html)

Well still looks like a cheap die cast thingie...

Wish I had a DLC or something I never have played for GTOS right about now.  Could only handle 2 hours of rivets today. MUIHAHAH

Hehe.  >:(

Have received information about SU - 2 bomb loads in the may 42 (Kharkov front /Taranovka and so on/) and June-July 42 (around Volokonovka and Shilovo polygon). This plane s*cks.

No conspiracy theories why it's production was ceased. Average bombload for 1 plane was around 200 KG (from 171 to 214) ... while IL-2 including RS-82 around 514 KG at the same time ... Don't know why but it carried 3 bombs on the average (100 - 25 KG), looks like all internal. May be external decreased speed to much, in time of Luftwaffe superiority it was impermissible.  :-\

Ya, this is conclusion I am coming too. 

It did not have enough powerful engine.  Its attack profile has it right where fighters could get at it easy.  So if you load it to max pay load you are a going quite slow.  Explains all the things I read about crews stripping the plane of everything to include some of the armor plate. 


But some aspects of the plane are pretty good.  But getting to the front and having a low payload even in a shallow dive is just not going to be that effective.  Only 7.62 machine guns so strafing many sorts of targets is pointless. Had they stuck the engine they wanted in there it probably would have been more effective.  Still issues with bombing, but at least a higher speed that should be just below 1941/1942 speeds of things like ME109. 

In game terms I think it should be a good air craft.  Its not overly powerful.  I think IL2 is less effective than it should be.  For strafing the FW190 right now is probably the best plane in the game. I don't think that is quite right.  The Il2 should at least be as effective at that as the FW.  Only also with rockets and bombs.   

The other function of the SU2 was as a spotter plane.  But air craft cant spot or call arty on targets.  Which is to bad....maybe. The Su2 did have a good radio for a reason. 

Now I am thinking about a FLAK 38.....  I do have some good data but anyone have anything good?  Perhaps better than mine? 

Probably be another at least 20 hours of work before this Su2 is flying around GTOS. Maybe more maybe less if I get sick of it and go good enough.   :-X 

But something to shoot down the su2.... ya...

While I am asking... the 37mm aa gun of the Red Army too if anyone has info...I have none.  But that thing is kind of big.  Not sure it fits well with what GTOS or mius is. 

Mius was Russian offensive so 37mm probably only on the back of Gaz if at all.

No, a lot of Russian AA was captured by German counter offensive (of the 2nd SS Corps), there are many photos, somewhere.

I am not sure I have anything about Flaks...I have to check or to look through russian internet segment.

I can say that in the July's Mius Soviets have a lot of different AA guns. As I remember a few mech brigades were equiped with german 20mm guns. Also there were 37mm AA, 25mm AA and 20mm SHVAKs on tripods (as I remember) instead of 12.7 DSHK.


PS. 2 Flashburn, well ... I have checked the aviation of one possible polygon which could be after Mius and summer Taranovka ... it is the same bomb division like was on the Mius .... there were 10 A-20G ... and 21 A-20B ... but it looks like Red Airforce was not going to use A20G as ground attack plane and possibly all 20mm were removed as no 20 mm was spent ... moreover defenetly all A20B had russian weapons and bombs ... about G don't know.

In winter Taranovka, Sokolovo and so on there were so called B-3, as I understand it is Boston -3. They were prepaired for the Great Britain but were sent to USSR. Red Air Force liked it for it's speed and big bombload. It's said that they were unreachable for german fighters above 4500 meters cause of their speed and manoeuvrability ... so they were mainly used to attack targeds such as airfields and railroad stations in the rear areas ... not forward positions.

Now this is interesting... 

25mm aa gun ?  And 20mm Shvak's?  I honestly have no idea bout these.. 

A smaller cannon than 37mm (that thing IS pretty big!)  makes more logical since to me.  I have no idea what those even look like....

25 aa: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/25-%D0%BC%D0%BC_%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BF%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%86%D0%B0_1940_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0_%2872-%D0%9A%29

Sorry it is in russian but you can google translate it. It was not widely used in 42 but in late 43 started slowly displace a 37mm. In my opinion it is better to have 37mm one in the game cause it was more frequent while 3D model looks the same.

20mm shavak ... well it seems a local production. Either they have taken a few pieces from river boats or put plane's shvaks on tripod from DSHKA or other homemade...

It looks like the normal is too pronounced?
On another sims R/G normal the red/green ratio was 157/186 on the wing 239/188 on the rivets.

Oh ya.  Right now the normals are vary much "under construction"  ;D  Will not be perfect right, but I hope a decently close within what can be done with a low poly model and a 2048 x 2048.  One day I hope to do something where I can actually run up to the subject, crawl threw it, measure it and all that.  FOr now...its the internet and hope its close.  Which usually is in the ball park.  Couple months ago I ran across an M38a1 jeep as well as a m40 recoiless rifle.  I was pretty surprised how close I was to right.  What I mean is that areas I had no reference for I had ended up guessing pretty close  to right.  Certainly enough to pass the it looks right test.

Once I get everything that will work in the normals I will mess around with the values and get it closer to right.  Alas some places i did not leave quite enough space or simply not enough to go super duper detail crazy.   On the cowling for instance, due to how I relaxed the uvw mapping and the size issues I will not be able to do some stuff I wanted too.  =(  but should be plenty good enough for a plane zipping around GTOS sky's.  After all...it is a 9000 triangle model.  Not a 200000 DCS deal.   :P  But I like low poly stuff.  Its an interesting challenge.   Lower does not mean easier.  Just more thought involved.  Well enough about all that.   :P

Have had no time to work on this over the weekend alas.  But thought up another vehicle to maybe consider at some point.  The su57.  Where any of these things around areas of Gtos polygons I wonder...  Hmmm  maybe not.. looks like most DID end up on the Ukrainian front, but not till 1944.  Poop.  Well sort of poop. 

Su57 if we talk about US T48 was used substantially in the summer 44 - 45.

Ya not exactly going to work...for now. 

su-76?
Hmmmmmm?

Looking for things I have at least some reference on.  The Su57 is just a M3 GMC with a way better gun.  SU76 might be in the works for all I know.  But the big thing is zero reference sitting around.  I am clearly still looking for something to go off and make later.  SDKFZ 222 is also a possible. 

I considered a willy jeep or gaz 64 but more in an armored vehicle mood.  An m3 lee with cast hull has be interested but so few made and I seriously do not think any of those made it to the eastern front.  Hell i am not sure they made it to any front really.  Maybe a church hill tank?  Oh hell I don't have any idea what vehicles where in the area of either GTOS or Mius.   You know, something that fits in and not totally out of place..

Sdkfz 222 exactly what is needed for Mius'43. The hill 277.9 (Saur-Mogila) was defended by the 116 aufklarung abteilung, mainly 4x4 armour cars and a few 8x8. As I know Graviteam don't have resources to do it.

Right now there is no maps in the game for M3 Lee and Churchil. However, both of them are right for the LongStopHill (Tunis 42 & 43).

GTOS MIUS, what was there but what as I know is not planned by the Graviteam:

PZ4H + different variants of Pz4G with shilds.
PZ3M + Pz3L with shields / Pz3N without shilds
STUG3G (with and without shilds)
Sdkfz 222 and variants
Sdkfz 250/7 & 251/16 and different commanders variants with antennas.
German Flaks 20mm (single/quad towed and mobile) + 88mm
PAK43/41
Soviet 37mm AA gun.

Probablly I've missed something.


Su - 76 is vital for the Taranovka aug/sept 43 ... may be Devs will do it.

Jeeps any is also welcom as towing cars. Prime mover for germans (like Sd.Kfz.10) too.

Also Grille(Bison 43 variant) , wespe, hummel for SS.

You sure about the skirts and stuff for panzers not being in the works?  At least the 3N seems to have one version without its side skirts.  That seems like a vary doable thing adding in the skirts for various panzer 3 and 4 models. 

I don't know, I don't have any inside info.

What we have now in the game - Pz3N with shields (skirts), what is wrong for the winter'43, at least for the 6th and 11th PzD as I have photos where they are without them. While in the PZ4G' photos of different types, they are as without shields, as with turret skirts and so on ...

In the Mius there were a real mix, for instanse stug3G of separate battalions without shield, stugs of the 2nd SS Corps with shields.


Hmm, I see Pz3N only with skirts in my version. I've not seen any ingame picture of them without them skirts ... maybe I've missed something ...

Hmm I saw a panzer 3 N with turret bits but no side skirts.  Not sure where I saw that.  But certainly welcome. 

OK, so I have not had time to work on this. Well I did last night but ended up playing Shilovo instead :P  After having the AI call in stukas on me I got to thinking.  Just what would make aircraft better or more interesting in GTOS? 

Well AA guns clearly would be nice. 
But would certainly be nice to be able to call in aircraft as a mini tactical battle behind the lines every now and then... 

Anyone have any weird ideas even if they have a snow balls chance in hell of ever happening? 

Air power doesn't play much of a role in this game. AA guns would probably be cool to use against infantry and light armor, but the airpower in this game is mostly just a side item that I never rely on or care much about.

I'll take an artillery spotter over an air spotter any day.

That is my point...  And indeed I would use AA guns in the ground attack role as well mainly.  It is one reason they are so useful.  As a defensive weapon vary duel purpose.  But what would make the air assets BETTER is what I am getting at. 

For instance, say you locate an enemy supply depot.  It is totally legit to try and disrupt supply with an air attack.  Or massed units getting ready to start an assault or defense.  Etc.  Just would be nice to be able to launch an air attack on something farther behind the lines as an option I guess.  I have no problem with air craft sucking at hitting moving vehicles.  that indeed is a hard thing for a ww2 pilot trying to bomb a moving maneuvering tank.  But right now even stukas have a hard time bombing static guns.  In fact I find the best bombing platform to be the PO2.  Which is sort of messed up.   ;D  Should air power be a main focus of the game.... NO of course not.  But more of this aspect certainly is not a bad thing. 

Air attacks look cool in the game but they really aren't very important to the outcome of a battle at this tactical level.

While I don't mind aircraft being in the game, I personally don't think they are necessary or very important.

Like I stated in the earlier post,they are more of a side item to be sampled but hardly the main dish.
You can't even lock the camera on the planes to make them more appealing to watch as the air strikes are being performed, which is why I don't think much effort should go into the air aspect of this game.

In my opinion I think more time should be spent on new maps and weapons systems and maybe adding different countries to the semi-modern force mix for quick battles..
Actually I would prefer more maps than anything else-with or without a campaign to go with them.

What do you think about introducing parachute drop behind the enemy lines? The planes would be very useful! ;D

The game does allow para-drops of supplies to cut off units behind enemy lines during the Op-Phase in certain campaigns.

Yes it does of course.  A nice little cut scene would be nice when that happens.  Although, granted totally NOT needed and time and money is best spent elsewhere.  I will say that a transport chopper dropping troops off would be nice.  But not really needed do to size of the game cells. 


Heck I would just be happy with a 10 minute mini mission where you could launch an air attack (or the reverse) behind the lines.