Assault guns - 11th SS Panzer Abteilung 'Hermann von Salza'

[Estnische]

Can any tank buffs tell me what this unit might have used around July '44 Eastern Front?

Jagdpanzers or Sturmgeschuetzes or Hummels?

Edit: Whoops! Found my own answer on axishistory.com: (mods, let me know if I should remove this)

[Estnische]

[Kyth]

I guess the answer is "none of the above"? 

[Estnische]

I guess the answer is "none of the above"? 

Well, yes. But there were 30 (+ 5 in reserve if I read it right) StuGs attached to the 11th Panzergrenadiers (Nordland and Nederland).

[Kyth]

'Hermann von Salsa'

I like the name. (storing for future use) 

[Mistwalker]

I can try to search what soviet units they were fighting with.

[Estnische]

The day after the log, they were fighting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tannenberg_Line

The only mention I see of opposition is IS-2s. That would be great Mistwalker!

[frinik]

Very interesting reading!I wasn't aware of this particular battle or rather series of battles.It shows that late in the war in the East despite appaling losses and crushing defeats( Operation Bagration) dedicated leaders and motivated troops could still make a difference for the German side.

If I remember correctly Hermann von Salza was a Grandmaster of the order of the Teutonic knights in the 13th or 14th century.

[Mistwalker]

The only mention I see of opposition is IS-2s. That would be great Mistwalker!

There was only one regiment of JS-2 - 31th, 21 vehicle in full strength.
Other tank units were 27, 45, 82, 98 and 185 tank regiments in 2nd Shock Army with T-34 tanks (lend-lease tanks may also be possiblity).
Also 1222 and 1815 self-propelled artillery regiments in 2nd Shock Army and 806 and 1198 - in 8th Army. No heavy vehicles, so in those regiments were either SU-85 or SU-76. 1815 called "light self propelled artillery regiment", so it most likely had SU-76.

This link might be interesting for you too: http://www.militaar.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13713

Very interesting reading!I wasn't aware of this particular battle or rather series of battles.It shows that late in the war in the East despite appaling losses and crushing defeats( Operation Bagration) dedicated leaders and motivated troops could still make a difference for the German side.

I'd hardly call it much of a difference because Narva offensive was initial success - German forces were forced to retreat from around Narva city and city itself was liberated.

[frinik]

Yes as far as the war was concerned it was a foregone conclusion.The Soviets, short of stopping all offensive action, couldn't lose at this stage.The Germans were so badly outnumbered in all areas and the lack of fuel, having to fight on 3 fronts, their logisitics in shambles, the Allies bombing round the clock and Hitler bent on sacrificing and destroying anything left could not win in any way short of their enemies unilaterally stopping the war.Yet despite that men kept on fighting against the odds .The Kurland campaign is another example of stubborn and effective resistance.

[whukid]

Yes as far as the war was concerned it was a foregone conclusion.The Soviets, short of stopping all offensive action, couldn't lose at this stage.The Germans were so badly outnumbered in all areas and the lack of fuel, having to fight on 3 fronts, their logisitics in shambles, the Allies bombing round the clock and Hitler bent on sacrificing and destroying anything left could not win in any way short of their enemies unilaterally stopping the war.Yet despite that men kept on fighting against the odds .The Kurland campaign is another example of stubborn and effective resistance.

Agreed. Even during the Destruction of Army Group Center, there are a plethora of stories about Tankers and Panzergrenadieren who mounted a vicious defense to buy their retreating comrades a few hours or so. Even in the Battle for Seelow Heights, the German Wehrmacht and SS units held off an infinite mass of Russians for far longer than anticipated. They fought so hard that Zhukov was forced to call in his reserves, which were being held for the Battle of Berlin.

Even after their tanks had run out of gas and their machineguns out of ammunition, many units were able to fight their way to the Elbe and US/British Lines, where they surrendered to the false hope of being kept out of the murderous reach of Stalin. There was one occasion when half of a Tiger Platoon was able to fight their way out of Berlin and all the way to the US lines. I don't remember the exact unit or specifications; I was more in awe of the 16 year old Hitler Youth platoons who were responsible for knocking out 800+ Soviet tanks in the Capital city, according to "Armored Battles of the Waffen SS"

[frinik]

The Hitler Youth I am not counting because they were basically poor children who had been brainwashed into sacrificing their young lives by cowardly NSDAP cadres who needed cannon-fodder.While the emphasis always seems to be on Waffen SS units ideologically motivated to fight with fanatism there's little room given to units such as the Fallschirmjaeger( Green devils) who seemed to always give tenacious and inspired resistance.Not to mention Stug units made up of volunteers and ordinary Wehrmacht units which fought every retreat with determined and skilful tactics.

This does not detract from the amazing courage and determination shown by Soviet infantry and tank crews who also had to put up with military and political leaders who had little care for their lives and who were taking huge and appaling losses often due to the steamroller and unimaginative/scripted tactics used by top Soviet military establishment.

[Estnische]

It's best not to generalise about motives for fighting - best to remember the dead kindly and live in a civilised world.

But I must note a couple of points here. By this stage Hitler had no interest in keeping Estonia, only for its strategic value in preventing Finland from being overhwelmed. Narva was principally held until Finland sued for peace. Once that happened, Estonia had no more value, and Narva was surrendered. For example the 11th SS didn't get new main tanks until they were back on German soil. They had to make do with Panthers that were past their prime.

After Narva, the subsequent battle at the Tannenberg line was fought with half the troops being conscripts and volunteers from Estonia. These guys were fighting for their homeland, they had no interest in Nazi ideals. They wanted to defend their land against another Soviet occupation - the US and UK twiddled their thumbs last time, so fighting with the Germans was the only way.

I should also note that they were in the Waffen SS, but not because of any fanaticism. As I understand it, all foreigner troops were not trusted, so the policy was to keep them under Himmler and SS control.

[frinik]

I agree with you Enthnische, the Balts fighting on the German side - like the Finns - were not primarily motivated by Nazi ideals but simply because fighting for the German side was the least fo 2 evils on the only chance to preserve their independence and national character.I was referring to Waffen SS volunteers from Belgium ,France, the Netherlands, Scandinivia who fought primarily for ideological reasons.

I also think the reasons SS did not receive new tanks had more to do with the inability of German production being unable to keep up with the disastrous losses of both vehicles and crews in Summer 1944(Falaise, Bagration, Italy) which far outpaced capacity than any political motive.

[whukid]

I think the same goes for most Germans, even in the SS. They didn't fight for the "Ideals" of Nazism; they fought because they were asked to fight for their country.

[Kyth]

The day after the log, they were fighting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tannenberg_Line

What map(s) to do you intend to use for the mission / campaign?

[Estnische]

That's a big question! I'm still finding out what makes SFK42 tick. I've only just managed to learn how to install mods and missions, and screwed up along the way!
 
I don't know the existing maps well enough to know if any are similar.

Here is IMHO an awesome detailed map of the real location from 1925, the grid lines are 1km apart, and the contours are 2m intervals:
 


Most of Estonia is flat as a pancake, apart from little anomalies like these three hills that were pushed up by glacier ice.
It appeared to me that maps can be made, I think Rends made his Seelow map?
 
The battle area could be covered in a 4km by 4km map, but 3km by 3km will do. I understand that SFK42 is limited to 2km by 2km? I'm sure it could be done as a 2/3 scale reduction and still be realistic
 
I have no idea how to commence making a map, or if any software is required. If it is not too hard, I'll have a go.
 
If someone would be kind enough to make it, let me know?
 

[Kyth]

A lot of the stock maps feature gentle rolling terrain with scattered forests, so you might want to experiment with them.

It's also a good idea to get familiar with the Mission Editor first, there's quite a long thread about the ME somewhere around here 

[Estnische]

Another question? Is the Panther part of SPM1.5? I've looked at older threads, one says no (Panther and Hetzer mod) and another implies yes, (Hurry Up Kubelwagen).

If there is no Panther, then maybe I shouldn't start.

[frinik]

The Panther D is part of Beta 1.5 but not the Panther G.The G model which was released with the Hetzer_Panther mod  - pre Beta 1.5 - was withdrawn from circulation barely 3 weeks after being released as the model which had originally been  created for a WII mod for the fps game Battlefield 2 called Forgotten Hope 2.0. Some of the modders decided without approval from others to make the model available for SF.I managede to downlaod the integral mod before it was withdrawn but unfortunatelt that model was ntoi compatible with the models made for the Steel panzer mod 1.4 like the Tiger I(0.97/0.98) and JS-2 mods .

The irony is that I ahve Battlefield 2(BF2) includign Forgotten Hope 2.0 with the Panther G model absolutely identical to the one released with the Hetzer_Panther mod.

The good news is that with the upcoming 1.6 mod release both Panther A and a new model of the Ausf.G are going to be present.Patience!