Whukid's Kursk Patch (released)

[kapulA]

He should be, but to me the shape and colouring is somehow more reminiscent of an AK-47. Nice drawing, nonetheless!

[whukid]

Thanks guys

Yea, he has a Sturmgewehr. I couldn't remember any defining characteristics about it except that it had a skinnier magazine and a different upper receiver than the AK-47.

[Mistwalker]

The IS-2 is a post-war version.  

The Soviets lost almost a thousand tanks in the battle for Berlin.

Permanent losses during battle in the city itself were following:

2nd Guards Tank Army lost 104 armored vehicles (4 IS 2)
3rd Guards Tank Army lost 114 armored vehicles (no more than 2 IS 2)
4th Guards Tank Army lost 46 armored vehicles (1 IS 2)

11 Tank Corps of 5th Shock Army lost 77, 1st Guards Tank Army lost 232, and 7th heavy tank brigade lost 39 armored vehicles  during entire Berlin operation (so we can safely assume that no more than half of all vehicles were lost in the batle for the city itself).

That gives us about 450 destroyed vehicles in the city at max.

[frinik]

I am not surprised considering the street battles and the fact that most of Berlin was in rubbles after the heavy Allied bombings of 1944 and early 1945.There were probably very few streets or avenues that were still possible for the armour to use.Plus Soviet tankers would be very much aware that in a urban warfare context tanks are very vulnerable to ambushes or traps. I suspect that probably 80 % of Soviet armour losses in the city proper were due to hand-held AT weapons.. I remember reading an article about a French Waffen SS volunteer in the Charlemagne division who destroyed 13 Soviet tanks with panzerfausts in a week and was awarded the Iron Cross....

[Mistwalker]

Aaaand here is the  texture for the late Tiger in .PSD format.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?n6m69tq6jr89x11

I suspect that probably 80 % of Soviet armour losses in the city proper were due to hand-held AT weapons..

About 2/3 AFAIR. Tank is a good weapon in the city if you have a proper infantry support.

[whukid]

Hmm. According to Will Fey's "Panzer Battles of the Waffen SS", over 800 tanks were knocked out by Hitlerjugen the German army in Berlin. The quote from his book is "Marshal Konev wrote in his memoirs that the Soviets lost 800 tanks in the fight for Berlin, equivalent to four or five tank divisions" According to the records of the 503rd, eight King tigers knocked out over 480 tanks in 12 days

[Mistwalker]

The difference between knocked out and destroyed tank is that knocked out tank can be repaired. How fast - depends on damage. It can just lose track or wheel for example and be abandoned by crew (or have some crewmembers killed) but next hour it'll be in combat again. Some damaged tanks required days to repair, some required factory mainteance but that's temporary losses.

So if you read somewhere about "we knocked out/destroyed 100 tanks" and you want to know, how many tanks the enemy lost permanently, you can without much worries cut the number at least in half.
This is true for both sides. I've read in the books a number of reports where Soviet troops claimed insanely huge number of kills, but according to the German reports actual losses were low. That doesn't mean the other side was lying in all cases, more like it means how effective German repair service was. Add miscalculations here (like a few sources reporting about the same kill independently) and you'll get the number. Also if you'll look at German claims and actual permanent losses from the Soviet side, you'll see that in many cases the second number doesn't even stand near the first.

As to the batlle for Berlin - Konev mentioned the real number of permanent losses for the 1-st Ukrainian Front, but he meant the entire Berlin operation from April 16th to May 5th at almost 400 km length. During that time the front participated in Halbe encirclement for example, where about 80000 of German troops were trapped (more than 150000 including rear lines). And this is more than the entire force that defended the city.

[frinik]

I agree.The loss claims were dubious since there was a tendency to inflate numbers on both sides for propaganda purposes.Sometimes alos the same tank could be hit by 2 different tanks or a tank and an At gun for example  and be claimed as 2 tanks destroyed.The sam ething happened with air losses and air battles.

One good example is the Allies pilots claims as to the number of German tanks they destroyed during the Normandy battle.The maount of losses thye claim exceeded the number of tanks the Germans had on the entire Western front. I remember reading that comparing the ,losses thye pilots had claimed with Germna records of their own destroyed amrour losses after the wear and the pilots claims had been exaggerated by up to 80%.In fatc while pilots had claimed 60% of all German amrour destroyed the actual rate after the war was found to be closer to 5%.

Likewise the Sobviets claimed having destroyed more Tiger tanks during the Kursk battle than the Germans had actually fielded.Likewise the German Panzeraces claims of their kills look highly inflated in many instances.The only accurately way you can verify the  enemy's casualties are when you remain master of the battlefield and can actually count the enemy tank wrecks left behind...

Knocked out meant out of combat , disabled. Destroyed is really what counts.

In their losses the Soviets include tanks that were destroyed accidentally by their own troops( according to articles I read the Soviet had an incredibly high rate of accidents dues to drunkenness and carelessness from recruits or unsufficiently trained crews. 3 to 4 times higher than the Germans. So of the 800 tanks lost by the Soviets may be 15 % were lost to accidents not to mention friendly fire.

As for the 8 Tiger IIs destroying 480 tanks in 12 days it's possible but probably exaggerated considering low ammo and fuel supplies and the German being on the retreat constantly....

[whukid]

I'm not so sure. Of course there is the very likely possibility that those tanks weren't to terribly damaged (this was more common on the western front, from what I gather. one battalion had a loss rate of 588%, but repaired all but 15 of their tanks),  however the Germans had one of the strictest "kill claim" criteria. The Russian government also isn't exactly the best source of information. Even in modern times (Chechnya), they refuse to acknowledge the true casualty figures, favoring numbers far less than the reality.

Another reason I'm skeptical of the Red Army reports is a simple one; Willi Fey was a tank commander in the Berlin sector. True, he may be biased, however he has a first hand experience in the fighting raging around Berlin. Unfortunately, I highly doubt the NKVD commanders who "edited" the Red Army reports had the same intentions in mind.

Lastly, lets also keep in mind that my original statement was " The russians lost almost a thousand tanks in the battle for Berlin." The distinction between "knocked out" and "destroyed" is fairly irrelevant, since the armored vehicles were still knocked out of commission, their crews either dead or abandoned. From what I understand, the knocked out vehicles were unable to be repaired for days at a time because the area was still contested by the Germans.

Please excuse my skepticism of the Russians; it's the old Cold War rivalry acting up

Now, for some mod news;

I'm currently in the process of adding tanks to the IDF mod 2.0. When I'm done figuring that out or when I get frustrated (whichever comes first), I'll return to the Steel Fury skins. In the mean time, I hope to fix a few things, like the Panzer IV F2 paint and the Tiger. Stock skins for the edited russian tanks will be supplied shortly. It's recommended that the user overwrite their "KV-1a/s" and "IS-2" entries with the SP1.5 skins or just plain delete them.

Also, some little bastard hacked into my Mediafire account. 59 editions of the new "IDF mod 1.75 Beta" were leaked, somewhere.  Retribution shall be swift..

[whukid]

Panzer IV F2 patch
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?l4q47415lvov8zo

[whukid]

Panzer VI Tiger Ausf E
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?bc127vu1x83bya1

[Kyth]

Thanks, and remember also to patch the Jpz IV skin, which is rather rancid, IMHO, 

[whukid]

Haha all things in good time, Kyth It'll be included in the 1944-1945 Skin update, as will the Panther Ausf A/D, Tiger 1 (late), Tiger 2(503rd Pz Btn colors, no insignia), Jagdtiger (kudos to KapulA for the reference), Jagdpanther, Hetzer, Panzer IV Ausf H, Stug III F/G, Panzer III, and the Ferdinand.

These patches were for the last update. I didn't quite have everything perfect, and I'm trying to fix em up alittle  

[frinik]

Whukid, is it possible to use your new skins selectively?I.e I happen to like the current Panther Ausf.A tri-colour camo as well as the Tiger SS and late war Tiger I tri-colour camo that came with the Ultimate release.Even the Panzer IV H one ain't bad.So I'd like to have some of the new ones and retain some of the old ones.....

Re German tank kills.While it's true the Germans had a very strict kills claim system let's not forget that starting mid 1943 they were continuously on the retreat and rarely able to tally the claimed kills with actually kills left by the enemy on the battlefield.Plus The Nazis, like the Soviets, were a totalitarian party which had a very active propaganda service and I am sure Docktor Goebbels - the one who invented the dictum " the bigger the lie the more likely it is going to to believed or accepted eventually as the truth" - would not have been against inflating the number of kills in order to boost the morale on the homefront....

[Littlebro]

I think all you would need to do is delete the  appropriate dds file  in H:\Steel Fury - Kharkov 1942\MODS\Whukid's Kursk Skin pack (tricolor)\data\k42\loc_rus\textures\techn\tanks\heavy.
I personally have done this for the tiger and have added my own panther skin.
I am really looking forward to the new summer skins and have some dears of my own taken from photos and videos such as these found here http://militarymodels.co.nz/2012/03/23/the-pz-kpfw-v-panther-in-action-wartime-film-footage/ and the tank power books.

[Mistwalker]

I'm not so sure. Of course there is the very likely possibility that those tanks weren't to terribly damaged (this was more common on the western front, from what I gather. one battalion had a loss rate of 588%, but repaired all but 15 of their tanks),  however the Germans had one of the strictest "kill claim" criteria. The Russian government also isn't exactly the best source of information.

This isn't from the government. Those numbers above are the reports from war-time documents, which were marked as secret for a long time in USSR. So you have the reason to trust German documents - this is the same reason to trust the documents from the other side. If you don't - than you can't trust the documents from both sides for the same reason - it's fair to assume that propaganda editing worked for the both sides.    

As for me - when I have the reason not to trust to the reports about the numbers of the killed tanks from the both sides - I have no reason not to trust to the reports about the numbers of the lost tanks from the both sides during the war. That has nothing to do with the propaganda. The commanders need the numbers to calculate how much strength they have left in their disposal.

Haha all things in good time, Kyth It'll be included in the 1944-1945 Skin update, as will the Panther Ausf A/D, Tiger 1 (late), Tiger 2(503rd Pz Btn colors, no insignia), Jagdtiger (kudos to KapulA for the reference), Jagdpanther, Hetzer, Panzer IV Ausf H, Stug III F/G, Panzer III, and the Ferdinand.

By the way - I forgot to mention that there were already no Ferdinands in 1944. They were modified (added zimmerit, machinegun and commander's cupola) and called Elefants. The picture from earlier showing the model of zimmerited Ferdinand is historically incorrect.

[frinik]

Thanks for the tip Littlebro!

[whukid]

Yes, I know it's incorrect. Unfortunately, we do not have an "Elefant" series Tank Destroyer to work with, only the Ferdinand.

[Littlebro]

Here are some pics of knocked out panthers being remanufackturerd and may account for some of the mixed upgrades seen.

[Littlebro]