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Author Topic: WORST PART ABOUT THE GAME...!!!  (Read 7712 times)
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SSPEIPER
Major
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Posts: 61


« on: July 03, 2012, 12:53:50 PM »

Again with the damn units being ROUTED...!!! WTF is going on with this...Huh?

I played a 3 hour first battle and was kicking ass.... I sent a platoon of 4 halftacks over to take Krasnaya Polyana and setup a defensive position at one of the main crossroads.

Meanwhile my AT guns and troop dug in - in trenches near the church absolutely massacred any Russian forces that came close...

As I was getting near the 3 hour mark the flags were shown to be in my control...but then after the battle it revealed that some Russian forces had slipped through a gap and had taken the bridge @ Krasnaya.... So because of this my forces in Krasnaya Polyana were routed???

Peiper's forces on numerous occasions where surrounded or behind enemy lines so dont tell me this was realistic that these forces are now just stricken from the list and unavailable for the next battle.....Pisses me off!!! why not have the opportunity to start the next engagement with that platoon surrounded???

This ruins a long and otherwise great game.....stop this stupid unit routing action... Angry
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Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 2412



« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2012, 02:56:47 PM »

You are not holding the ground you take.   Anyone including 1 random lost panic soldier can capture an OBJ while your main body is off killing everything.  Leave a small force to guard the land you take.  This is a key peice of basic army land stuff.......often lost on politicans concerned about killing everything in sight......  Refer to US in vietnam here.  You can win a war taking huge losses if you control the land.
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Redmarkus4
Oberstleutnant
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Posts: 157


« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2012, 03:42:03 PM »

At platoon level, I don't think it's that strange that they pull back rapidly if they find themselves surrounded.  A KG might fight if pocketed, but a platoon will flee.
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SSPEIPER
Major
****
Posts: 61


« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2012, 11:01:11 PM »

Peipers group advanced quite a distance through enemy territory and I can assure you he wasnt leaving behind any SPW let alone 1-2 troops to hold a position.

In reality in this same battle - a Russian snow-shoe battalion massacred and mutilated some stragglers in the column that had not kept up with Peipers spearhead.

This entire action is in detail in the book : Jochen Peiper , by Patrick Agte.  I read this section and was trying to fight it realistically...


They are a mobile battle group (Kampfgruppe) and often found themselves temporarily cut off and/or surrounded...

As stated, I held a strong position at a crossroads close to the bridge @ Krasnaya Polyana - so to have a perfectly good platoon that was kicking some major but then
taken away from me for the rest of the Campaign just because 1-2 russians sneaked through a gap in my lines and took a flag (and the flag did not change during the tactical stage - I only noticed they had taken the bridge when I finished the first battle).  Angry


Im trying the entire battle again (3 hours wasted before) to make certain no russians slip through the gaps....

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Dane49
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 1479


« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2012, 11:31:41 PM »

This is what I pulled from the book Last Victory in Russia by George Nipe,about the battle for Krasnaya Polyana.
Kampfgruppe Peiper and the Rescue of 320.
Infanterie-Division
While fighting raged southeast and east of Kharkov, particularly in
the Rogan area, Kampfgruppe Peiper began its operation to reach
320. Infanterie-Division at 0330 hours. After assembling in the pitch
black, bitter cold night, the SS Grenadiers stood around the half
tracks, stamping their feet and clapping their frozen hands in futile
attempts to stay warm. The SPW exhaust pipes sent out clouds of
vapor while the men and drivers gathered in small groups, quietly
talking while they waited for the order to begin the attack. To shut
a motor off risked not being able to get it started again because of

the intense cold. As a result there was a constant dull rumbling of
idling motors throughout the assembly area. Finally the NCOs re- .
turned from a last mission review and the men clambered aboard
the vehicles clutching their weapons. The Kampfgruppe moved off
toward the south while to the rear the long line of ambulances also
got under way, following at a distance behind the combat troops.
Led by two assault guns, the lead elements of the relief column
drove southward toward the Udy River. At 0515 hours, Peiper's
lead detachment surprised a Russian security force on the bridge
over the river at Krassnaya Polyana. The bridge was in German
hands before it could be destroyed by the surprised Russian troops.
Those who were not killed or captured fled into the night and disappeared.
After mopping up the area, Peiper left a platoon behind
to protect the bridge and quickly pushed on. The following column
of vehicles snaked through Krassnaya Polyana and crossed the
bridge after a brief halt due to a Soviet counterattack that destroyed
several vehicles and caused havoc for a time before it was driven
off. Burning vehicles were pushed off the road into the deep snow
and the lead vehicles left the river and its platoon of guardians behind.
A few minutes later intense firing suddenly was heard once
again from Krassnaja Polyana. The detachment guarding the bridge
had been attacked once again and were fighting for their lives, but
no help could be sent back to aid them because the column had to
keep moving.
An hour later Peiper's Kampfgruppe reached Zmiev and crossed
the Northern Donets River on a still intact rail road bridge, at first
meeting no Russian resistance on the eastern bank. However, the
Russians were alerted to the presence of the SS column and after
Peiper's spearhead moved on, Soviet infantry mounted several attacks
against the SS troops guarding the bridge. Machine gun fire
snapped overhead and mortar shells began to impact around the
bridge. Several small groups of Russian infantry attacked the bridge
guard detachment, firing machine pistols and hurling grenades.
Peiper received word that 320. Infanterie-Division battle groups
were on the move, making their way toward their rendezvous with
the SS troops. A reconnaissance plane spotted the first regimental
group of the division traveling along the rail line only a few kilometers
southeast of Zmiev. A trail of dead horses, discarded equipment
and abandoned vehicles marked the passage of Postel's troops.
Peiper sent patrols to establish contact with the division, while the
main body of his battalion remained near Zmiev.
Shortly before noon, the first element of the infantry division
could be seen in the distance. At 1230 hours, the lead group of the
division, with its commanding officer, Generalmajor Postel at its
head, made the first contact with Peiper's men. The regiment serv-

ing as the divisional rear guard was still several kilometers away in
the Liman area. Peiper reported that the appearance of the men of
the first group was shocking and brought to his mind visions of the
retreat of Napoleon's Grand Army from Russia.
Shortly after the link up was established, elements of a Russian
rifle regiment occupied Krassnaja Polyana and took possession
of the bridge. The Russians killed the last surviving men of the
guard detachment, thus cutting Peiper's line of retreat. While Peiper
had waited for Postel's division to reach Zmiev, one of the bridges
in his rear had fallen into Soviet hands. There was nothing to be
done however, except carry out the mission and then find a way to
fight their way back to their own lines.
Throughout the night the assembly of bone weary German infantry
continued, as the exhausted men of the three regimental
groups called on their last mental and physical reserves in a final
effort to reach safety. Columns of exhausted men reached the SS
lines, unshaven, wrapped in rags and half frozen. Along the way
they had collected all manner of animals to help drag their guns
and equipment. Scores of little Russian panje horses had been taken
from Russian civilians and hooked up to sleds or supply wagons.
Officers rode horses on makeshift saddles of blankets, while cattle
or oxen had been commandeered to drag the division's remaining
artillery pieces. The men staggered past the SS soldiers wrapped in
layers of tattered blankets, ice hanging from beards and eyebrows.
Sleds and wagons rolled up to the river, loaded with wounded and
dead. But regardless of their appearance, the men had kept their
order and discipline and had not collapsed in the face of a terrible
mental strain. They had brought out their wounded, retained the
ability to fight and had occupied elements of three Soviet rifle divisions
during its march west.
This was an amazing achievement in itself and before all of
the division had even reached safety, Armeeabteilung Lanz considered
several assignments for it. This included a probably unrealistic
role as reinforcements for the SS-Panzer-Korps attack south of
Kharkov. Only the lead group of the division had actually reached
Peiper's position on the afternoon of 12 February in any event. The
entire division did not assemble in time to contribute to the attack
before other events completely changed the situation in Kharkov.
The last regimental group, made up of the survivors of the division's
585. Grenadier Regiment, did not reach the rescue assembly area
until 14 February. With the arrival of the rear guard detachment,
the nightmarish withdrawal of the division was at an end.
Peiper's battalion spread out on each flank to protect the march
route and the column got under way, with the long trail of ambulances
carrying their cargo of wounded. When the leading detach-

ments of the column neared the bridge at Krassnaja Polyana, they
were fired on by a Russian ski battalion. The bridge was partially
destroyed and the small German guard detachment, as well as a
number of German medical personnel and wounded had all been
killed. Their bodies lay in the snow, strewn in piles along the town
streets. Peiper launched an immediate assault and took the town
from the Russians. Little imagination is required to guess what happened
to any Russian survivors after the dead SS Grenadiers and
medical personnel were discovered. The remains of the bridge were
used to construct a fragile temporary bridge and the wounded of
the division were taken across. For those men, their ordeal ended
when they crossed over to the north bank of the river in the ambulances
and trucks. While the wounded and sick were taken across
the makeshift crossing, the rest of the division gathered on the southern
bank.
However the improvised bridge was not strong enough to hold
the assault guns and SPWs of Peiper's battalion. One of Postel's
surviving assault guns attempted to cross the frozen ice but fell
through and had to be abandoned. After the entire 320. InfanterieDivision
crossed the river to safety, Peiper was to assemble his battalion
at Merefa. In order to reach Merefa as soon as possible, Peiper
decided on a bold course of action and raced back to Zmiev. After
reaching the town the battalion turned west and drove down a road
on the northern bank of the Msha River. Passing through the towns
of Sidki and Mirgorod, Peiper was able to slip between Russian
forces in the area and reach Merefa, which lay about 15 kilometers
southwest of Kharkov. The first of Peiper's remarkable operations
during the winter of 1942-43 had reached a successful conclusion.
Meanwhile, to the south, while the men of 320. Infanterie-Division
marched into safety, the drama of the battle for Kharkov was reaching
a climax.
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Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 2412



« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2012, 04:15:33 AM »

Without attempting to get into the moral or lack there of warfare....  To many of these books are writen from one side perspective.  Super.........after a bunch of fighting a bunch of SS guys (yes.....certainly known for there care of civilians and prisoneers) got stupid and surrendered to a bunch of Soviets that many of whom family and friends had gotten killed.  Many I am sure recently.  I also highly dought an SS unit on the move where taking caputured soldiers with them. 


As a boy I could never understand reading about the Malmedy Massacre.....I still hate that guy.  However I loved unofficial Eisenhowers response to it. .....you know something about not wanting to see SS POW's.  And this guy would become a rather good IMO president of the United States.. Tongue

Another reason I hate the guy.............According to some sources, during the briefings before the operation, Peiper stated that no quarter was to be granted, no prisoners taken, and no pity shown towards Belgian civilians.  Had i been in this war I know I would have had my moral compass greatly challenged in the face of any SS guy..........as a US soldier.........as a Soviet soldier SS would have equaled worm food. 

BTW I would love to see the number of SS taken by US forces after Jan 45 for a few months.........I sure it was small.  Another reason if a nations military forces commint war crimes.....except the other side to do it to you.  If you treat them well along of the opposing side will surrender when in a bad place as they know they will get moral care. 

In my little war I went too.........last bullet was for me.  Being taken alive was not an option.  But as a typical US soldier I threw every spare bit of food I had to the kids from my turret as we past by.  I am sure some of their parents where trying to kill me too.   Tongue  War is an awful awful thing.......
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Dane49
Generalfeldmarschall
*****
Posts: 1479


« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2012, 05:47:27 AM »

I don't make moral judgements on these men,having never been on the Russian front or having seen as much war as the soldiers of these units must have seen,I'm pretty sure the brutal effects of continous combat and mental strain was very dehumanizing.I can only equate  the the kind of warfare that the combatants on both sides waged in Russia on each other(No quarter)with the kind of war that the American and Japanese soldiers waged against each other in the Pacific.War is brutal and ugly and nothing more than organized mass murder,regardless of the reasons for it.The Allies also waged war on civilians if you look at the fire bombing campaigns that took place over Germany and Japan.I don't think either side of this conflict came away with clean hands and I'm sure there were a boatload of war criminals on both sides from the major leaders down to the lowest private.I think as long as there are humans there will be war and when you have wars you will have war criminals.As much as I abhor war,I still find it very interesting from a historical point of view.It truly is, the one form of human endevour that accentuates the best and the worst mankind has to offer to each other.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 06:50:58 AM by dane49 » Logged
Redmarkus4
Oberstleutnant
*****
Posts: 157


« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2012, 01:30:10 PM »

All armies include soldiers (sometimes whole units of soldiers) who kill prisoners and civilians.  It continues to this day in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and elsewhere.  The German, British, Soviet, Japanese and US armies were all guilty of this kind of crime at various times.

The two moral criteria we should apply are probably only these:

1. Was this army fighting a war of aggression or a defensive war?

2. Did the government that this army served provide official sanction for these killings as an extension of national policy?

This separates the killings into two classes; those committed randomly by individuals and small groups, and those committed in an organised way by whole organisations.

If we don't distinguish between the methods used (bullets, hanging, gassing, bombing, firestorm or nuclear attack), we end up with a list of state authorized killings that includes:

1. The Holocaust
2. The starvation of Soviet prisoners by the Axis
3. Major parts of the allied bombing campaign that deliberately targeted civilian areas such as 'worker's housing'
4. Katyn and related killings
5. The deaths of hundreds of thousands of German POWs in Soviet hands
6. The Atom Bombing of two Japanese cities
7. The Bataan Death March (not to mention the massacres in China)
8. The starvation of large parts of the Bangladeshi population as a result of British military policy in 1944/5

No major power ends the conflict with its hands or conscience clean.  Soldiers of all armies killed innocent or unarmed victims.  War is a cruel and essentially lawless endeavor in reality.

All involved knew this fact before WW2 commenced.  So the moral blame must lay primarily with whoever started the war, while nations that were defending themselves carry a lesser burden of guilt, although they too are certainly guilty of gross crimes.

I will leave it to you gents to debate who started WW2, why, when and for what purposes.

Finally, the only way to escape punishment for crimes committed in wartime is to win.  The vanquished shall surely be punished and to start a war but lose it is a crime in and of itself!
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Meteor2
Hauptmann
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Posts: 31


« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2012, 05:33:17 PM »

Redmarcus4, that reminds me of General Curtis E. MeMay, commander of XXI. Bomber command in the Pacific and responssible for the fire bombing campaign against Japan.
He told his officers, that they all would be hanged for war crimes, if they would lose the war.
(source: "Fog of war" by McNamara).
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Redmarkus4
Oberstleutnant
*****
Posts: 157


« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2012, 06:08:02 PM »

I am sure that the Germans would have hanged Bomber Harris.

Now, don't get me wrong.  My Great Uncle and my Grandfather both fought during the war and almost all of my mother's family were killed in Europe - I only have one Aunt who survived, plus my mother.

I honor the service of two of my family members and the deaths of the others haunt me.

I think that all killings of civilians are wrong, even if they can't always be avoided, but I also think that unwarranted aggression is wrong and that it has to be resisted. 
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wodin
Generalleutnant
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Posts: 500


« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 12:59:28 PM »

3 hours is a long time to have your battles going, I find 1 hour makes a more realistic experience, otherwise you can end up with no ammo left for further battles, plus you every battle usually ends up with one side decimated.
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Lemonade
Oberstleutnant
*****
Posts: 191


« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2012, 02:40:58 AM »

I agree. I've set battle duration in APOS to 1hr. Even though I had it set to 2hr in K43. Too many "binary" situations in 2hr mode, in which one of the sides is obliterated.
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