March 2013 update (news and discussion)

[Tanker]

Thank you Andrey.

[wodin]

No 82...for a game striving for realism I think this is out of place and gamey.

[andrey12345]

No 82...for a game striving for realism I think this is out of place and gamey.

Its only a manually feature, if you dont want it you may dont use it.

[whukid]

No 82...for a game striving for realism I think this is out of place and gamey.

...what? using the crews of knocked out tanks to supplement wounded or killed crewmembers in other tanks was how the Panzerwaffe survived the first half of the war. When they ran out of tanks, they fought as infantry.

[Dane49]

I like the feature also.

Plenty of documented history of crews from other tanks that were disabled or knocked out replacing wounded or killed crew members from other tanks on the Russian front.

I've also read accounts of regular infantry replacing wounded or killed crew members on AT guns, Inf guns HMGs and mortars.

In the middle of a battle you can't afford to be choosey,even if it means on the job training at a moments notice.

Does this feature of replacing the members come with some form of decreased performance penalty?

[Flashburn]

I like the feature also.

Plenty of documented history of crews from other tanks that were disabled or knocked out replacing wounded or killed crew members from other tanks on the Russian front.

I've also read accounts of regular infantry replacing wounded or killed crew members on AT guns, Inf guns HMGs and mortars.

In the middle of a battle you can't afford to be choosey,even if it means on the job training at a moments notice.

Does this feature of replacing the members come with some form of decreased performance penalty?

Infantry at least, SHOULD have some basic cross training of support weapons.  Assuming time to do the training.  Something like that is pretty standard stuff.  Crews of knocked out vehcles being used to fill out injured/killed/sick/on leave crew of other tanks in same unit is VARY standard stuff.

[andrey12345]

I like the feature also.

Plenty of documented history of crews from other tanks that were disabled or knocked out replacing wounded or killed crew members from other tanks on the Russian front.

I've also read accounts of regular infantry replacing wounded or killed crew members on AT guns, Inf guns HMGs and mortars.

In the middle of a battle you can't afford to be choosey,even if it means on the job training at a moments notice.

Does this feature of replacing the members come with some form of decreased performance penalty?

This feature dont work in battle and dont extend over the platoons borders. Thus replenish tank crew in the neighboring tank company with the AT crews will not available. And just replenish crews by unprepared soldiers too - they have time to prepare for a few hours.

[Schuck]

Andrey,
Everthing looking good with the patch so far, except..
Whats with the "mini snow storm" that follows the vehicles round now, doesnt look quite right!
And HE rounds and Tracers into buildings with staw roofs and still no fires?

Sounds seem much better for me.

And i actually managed to pick off a Russian wire laying team with a couple of my snipers from about 500m(!), spot on . Never seen that before.

[andrey12345]

Whats with the "mini snow storm" that follows the vehicles round now, doesnt look quite right!

Please what with screenshots and photos.

And HE rounds and Tracers into buildings with staw roofs and still no fires?

It works with the probabilistic model. Wattle and daub house is not well to burn.

[Dane49]

I don't know about everyone elses take on the infantry fatigue level in the new patch,but I'm having a hard time comprehending how quickly and for how long the squads get tired,plus straggling is now a major issue also.

My squads can't seem to march more than a Kilometer(Km) before they need a 1/2 hour rest!
Plus over that Km march route my squads are strung out as far as 300-400 meters with approximately 3-4 guys bringing up the rear 300-400 meters from the lead squad member.

I was in the infantry and have marched thru dense jungle in Panama,swamps in Louisianna and Honduras and artic snow up in Alaska and I don't recall ever needing to rest for a 1/2 hour every Km or for that matter being allowed to,and our squads where never that strung out over the march route,and I would think there would be an added incentive in a combat zone,especially in Russia to not straggle for fear of being captured and/or tortured and executed by the enemy.

I am pleased that there is a fatigue level in the game and appreciate the fact that it is very difficult to march over long distances with a full combat load and heavy weapons,but I'm not sure it was as difficult as the game makes it seem unless they are conscripts or Rear echelon types-REMFs.

[andrey12345]

I don't know about everyone elses take on the infantry fatigue level in the new patch,but I'm having a hard time comprehending how quickly and for how long the squads get tired,plus straggling is now a major issue also.

My squads can't seem to march more than a Kilometer(Km) before they need a 1/2 hour rest!
Plus over that Km march route my squads are strung out as far as 300-400 meters with approximately 3-4 guys bringing up the rear 300-400 meters from the lead squad member.

Yes guys with heavy weapons or ammo crates is more tired.
If troops run or move on the slope or throught bush they more tired.
If troops move on deep snow and mud they more tired.
If it occurs in the cold or warm or under enemy fire, they also hardly resting.
If all factors are applied together - you always get tired soldiers.

The point is - do not run if not need (no fast move modifier), walk on the roads (by road modifier), rest not under enemy fire, but lying down (ambush button) or sit in houses (defence order in the village).

P.S. The process of resting is non-linear, if you are pounding the soldiers to half-death (<10%), then they will be a very long time to restore, and if the rest  before, about (20%+) - is very fast.

[Dane49]

One of the reasons I think it takes so long for my squads to recover from fatigue is-While half my squad has already reached the objective and are resting,the other half(stragglers) are still marching to the objective.

Does the recovery rate from fatigue start as soon as the last squad member reaches the objective and starts to rest or is it just determined on and based upon the squad leader alone?

I'm still not happy with how strung out the soldiers become during the march.It's the squad leaders job to keep his men together and cohesive,if not within shouting range at least in his line of sight while accomplishing his mission.

Of cource once the bullets start flying this becomes a very difficult job and in some cases almost impossible,but up until that point it shouldn't be a major problem.As I stated before the thought of capture by the enemy alone should be more than enough incentive to keep the soldiers from straying to far from the main group.Broken and panicked squads being the exception.

[andrey12345]

Does the recovery rate from fatigue start as soon as the last squad member reaches the objective and starts to rest or is it just determined on and based upon the squad leader alone?

No, stamina is individual characteristic for each soldier in real life and in game.
Exact same physical condition and personal wearable weight is different, so the some soldiers get tired sooner than the other part (and the rest soon).
Commander usually dont carries a heavy weapon or ammo so tired less than other soldiers.

Of cource once the bullets start flying this becomes a very difficult job and in some cases almost impossible,but up until that point it shouldn't be a major problem.As I stated before the thought of capture by the enemy alone should be more than enough incentive to keep the soldiers from straying to far from the main group.Broken and panicked squads being the exception.

Move by the roads. In the game this process is done automated. Plan in advance where you are going to attack (on the map in the operational phase), usually does not make sense to climb through the forest or any uncomfortable places.

In reality, most of the soldiers, too, most of the time walk / drive on the roads. Only rarely are straight and even less running through the bushes.
The game is very democratic in modeling fatigue. The full armed soldiers with the average fatigue (50%) can quickly run approx 2 km+ in relative flat dry field (in 20 C temperture).
If they run by road is approx 6 km. if they walk by road is practically unlimited during max battle time (3 hours)

[Tanker]

Still Andrey, on a 5km hike nobody should be straggling.  I can see stragglers on a 35km forced march.  But even through woods and over hills, there shouldn't be a strung out formation for a 5-8km march.

[whukid]

This isn't just a 5km ruck march to a warm barracks though. The soldiers have been living in foxholes for the better part of a month on little or no rations and under the constant threat of enemy fire, if not in direct contact the majority of the time.

As for ammo cans, no one here can ever remotely comprehend how much of a b&$*# those things are to carry around, plus all the other gear.

[Dane49]

Still the straggling in my squads,and I'm not talking about the heavy weapons squads either,are very bad.Actually in some instances I wouldn't even classify it as straggling but outright desertion!

Maybe for some realism We should have some military police roaming behind the front line rounding these guys up-shoot or hang a few and ship the rest off to penal battalions.

Seriously though,the roads in most instances weren't any better to travel on then the fields.You might be able to grab some local citizens to clear the main roads of snow to move your artillery and supply vehicles on,but the rest were just as thickly covered with snow as the rest of the terrain.And during the Spring thaw these roads were nothing more than muddy quagmires after being driven on a few times and if the temp dropped below freezing again the ruts in the frozen road were just as hard to travel on.

North East of Kharkov in Jan. of 43 the GD division tried to defend the roads with the few units that initially arrived in the area first,under the assumption that the Soviets would use them as their main axis of advance and found to their surprise that the Russian infantry usually pulling their heavy weapons and ammo on sleds would just bypass them and leave them for the next echelon to assault and mop up.Basically forcing the defending units to pull out before being surrounded and cut off.

Another thing to ponder is that roads especially cleared of snow roads are going to be targeted most likely by enemy heavy weapons and Arty TRPs,so it would be in the best interest of the assaulting units once they crossed the main line of resistance(MLR) to avoid them using cover and concealment to advance on their objective.

Like I stated before,I like the fatigue aspect of the game.My concern is that it is not completely or accurately portrayed with the present patch.I thought We would be seeing less micromanagment with the new patch,but now I find myself playing fatigue monitor and roaming the camera in the rear areas  wondering where half the members of my platoons and squads are!

In most instances this has bogged the game down for me while I wait for the stragglers to catch up and rest or just call off the assault and go on the defense

[Flashburn]

This isn't just a 5km ruck march to a warm barracks though. The soldiers have been living in foxholes for the better part of a month on little or no rations and under the constant threat of enemy fire, if not in direct contact the majority of the time.

As for ammo cans, no one here can ever remotely comprehend how much of a b&$*# those things are to carry around, plus all the other gear.

LOL.... yes I can.   Also water/fuel cans are a ROYAL pain.  Of course you can not have soliders trading loads like real world.

[Flashburn]

I don't know about everyone elses take on the infantry fatigue level in the new patch,but I'm having a hard time comprehending how quickly and for how long the squads get tired,plus straggling is now a major issue also.

My squads can't seem to march more than a Kilometer(Km) before they need a 1/2 hour rest!
Plus over that Km march route my squads are strung out as far as 300-400 meters with approximately 3-4 guys bringing up the rear 300-400 meters from the lead squad member.

Yes guys with heavy weapons or ammo crates is more tired.
If troops run or move on the slope or throught bush they more tired.
If troops move on deep snow and mud they more tired.
If it occurs in the cold or warm or under enemy fire, they also hardly resting.
If all factors are applied together - you always get tired soldiers.

The point is - do not run if not need (no fast move modifier), walk on the roads (by road modifier), rest not under enemy fire, but lying down (ambush button) or sit in houses (defence order in the village).

P.S. The process of resting is non-linear, if you are pounding the soldiers to half-death (<10%), then they will be a very long time to restore, and if the rest  before, about (20%+) - is very fast.

I just want to say.........having them rest in houses works vary well.  It speeds things up hugly. 

[Lemonade]

Thank you Andrey for the update! 

Dane, don't forget that most of the soldiers (save Guards units, SS and some Wehrmacht soldiers) were mostly drafted civilians. Add great famine in CCCP, underrationed soldiers on both sides, tiring marches (for motorized and non-motorized units), bad terrain, weather, sleeping in trenches, etc. WW2 soldier was not a modern professional soldier. And modern wars fought in some remote country are not world war conflicts from the beginning of the last century. Modern well fed soldier isn't a drafted civilian from 1930-40s put in an unknown territory by high command. It's like comparing apples and oranges.
Also please note, that most of player controlled units are fighting almost 24/7 for several days, if the AI is stubborn. And who knows what they did before the operation?

[Dane49]

It's not so much the fatigue that bothers me as much as it is the

straggling,and that's putting it mildly.

30-40% of my squads are basically deserting marching cross country after

only covering 1 Km.

I've sent commanders over to them for motivational speeches with no luck

and even called in mortar fire on some of the more blatant deserters to

light a fire under their little pixel asses,but that has no effect either.

It seems that I will no longer be handing out medals after battles,but I

will be setting up field court martials.I think it's time we added penal

battalions to the game!