Another random poll (North Africa front ww2)

[Flashburn]

Just wondering where APOS folks stand on such things   

[wodin]

Sorry no interest in Africa at all...I find the terrain boring. Long range tank battles and little cover for the Infantry...not my thing at all. I only liked CMAK because it covered Italy and Monte Casino...

[Flashburn]

While I have not played CMAK, many of the screen shots of maps do look quite flat.     The last CM game I played was shock force.  Which I must say I did enjoy despite early issues.  Personally I favor tunisia as alot of the combat was on much more varied terrain.  While arid not the North Aficain open desert.  And the Atlas mountains kept alot the tank V tank stuff on the plains and valleys, while infantry could do there thing as alot of dead space everywhere. Lot of combat seemed to take place in and around olive groves.  I happen to like olive oil quite alot to cook with.   

[andrey12345]

Where the theme for the blockbuster?
Italians vs the Ethiopians and Somalia. The capture of Madagascar. 

[Flashburn]

Where the theme for the blockbuster?
Italians vs the Ethiopians and Somalia. The capture of Madagascar. 

You certainly like the random stuff.    Haile Selassie plea to the world to send help........which no one did.  For shame!  Apart from that I know next to nothing about it! 

[Void]

Not interested in Africa.

I´d like to have late war scenario 44/45

[wodin]

While I have not played CMAK, many of the screen shots of maps do look quite flat.     The last CM game I played was shock force.  Which I must say I did enjoy despite early issues.  Personally I favor tunisia as alot of the combat was on much more varied terrain.  While arid not the North Aficain open desert.  And the Atlas mountains kept alot the tank V tank stuff on the plains and valleys, while infantry could do there thing as alot of dead space everywhere. Lot of combat seemed to take place in and around olive groves.  I happen to like olive oil quite alot to cook with.   

Actually I too enjoyed Shock Force....my main complaint was Syria as the other Nation involved, being underpowered..but this wasn't so much of an issue once the Brit module was released. I also enjoyed SF because of all the modern toys to play with...I don't think it was the setting that made me love the game.

[Dane49]

Tunisia would be a great area to explore some of the finer attributes of this game.

Tunisia is nothing like the deserts of Libya or Western Egypt,It's looks more like the terrain you would find on the island of Sicily,except the buildings would have more of a French colonial look.

There is lots to like about a Tunisian campaign.
For starters-Almost all the main players participated in that campaign(Germans,Italians,Americans,British,French and few other minor bit players).

Secondly-This was a maneuver campaign that took place over a wide area.The large maps and operational level of APOS would fit perfectly here to depict this campaign.

Also,while Tunisia wasn't a desert it also wasn't lush or built up.It was a dry and arid region with lots of open terrain where smoke and dust and smoke barrages which is now very well depicted in this game would lend itself to some very interesting game play.

I would be very interested in a DLC on this campaign,but am not holding my breath as to the amount of work and dedication it would take to get this project up and running,so I guess I'll just file it with the other wishes on my wish list.

[lavish]

I would find Africa interesting area for the game. Actually almost anything will do. It's not the theatre, place or the sides that matter, but the introduction of tactical situation, challenges or differences in the operations. I don't understand why some people are not interested in a game, if it's not about major known conflicts. The simulation value, regardless of the sides or place, is always the same! And even if there would be a simulation of a well known, overused conflict, why would it be "not again" when the number of real simulations about that conflict is probably very low or none?

I think APOS is kind of revolutionary simulation wargame in a sense that it's more physics or algorithm based rather than statistical "roll dice, check the table" game. Statistical simulations produce only certain discrete outcomes that are predetermined by the developer. On the contrary, physic/algorithm based simulation will produce it's own outcome through various calculations. In principle the results cannot be predicted, unless all the variables are known, and the game lives it's own life. If the physics/algorithms are descriping the behaviour of all the necessary things accurately enough, the outcome is ideally realistic or approaches it, and hence the game can be called a simulator. The user can give some inputs and change some variables on the fly (because it's a game), but the rest is about enjoying the results calculated by the computer. How many this kind of games are there?

[Flashburn]

Tunisia would be a great area to explore some of the finer attributes of this game.

Tunisia is nothing like the deserts of Libya or Western Egypt,It's looks more like the terrain you would find on the island of Sicily,except the buildings would have more of a French colonial look.

There is lots to like about a Tunisian campaign.
For starters-Almost all the main players participated in that campaign(Germans,Italians,Americans,British,French and few other minor bit players).

Secondly-This was a maneuver campaign that took place over a wide area.The large maps and operational level of APOS would fit perfectly here to depict this campaign.

Also,while Tunisia wasn't a desert it also wasn't lush or built up.It was a dry and arid region with lots of open terrain where smoke and dust and smoke barrages which is now very well depicted in this game would lend itself to some very interesting game play.

I would be very interested in a DLC on this campaign,but am not holding my breath as to the amount of work and dedication it would take to get this project up and running,so I guess I'll just file it with the other wishes on my wish list.

Ya Im in complete agreement.  From badly equiped French to unmotivated Italians (although some units did fight hard) to an extremely varied terrian.  Some of the crazy stuff the rangers did assualting a few positions during campaign is well NUTS!  THere where large armored clashes but also quite large infantry clashes.  With a legit historical context and legit map I think such a thing could be quite good within APOS way of doing things.  But alas, its all been done before.  Often NOT well which spoils such things. 

While such a thing WOULD make a good DLC within APOS, I also think such a thing could make a good tank sim.  Well a really good tank sim actually.  Make a good tactical FPS too but eeeeek so many have been there before with in shooter fests.    

[Dane49]

I don't care if its been done before!
Nobody in my opinion has ever been able to capture the whole feeling of that campaign and put it in its proper context and present it as such.
And also do it in a professional and satisfactory manner in which I can truly enjoy playing a game for that theatre.

Pizza has been done before,doesn't mean everyone who makes or sells Pizza does very good job of it.And just because everyone is trying to do it doesn't make it any less appealling for those of us who like pizza.The only problem I have with too many places offering pizza is I ocassionally end up eating some truly shitty pizzas hoping that someone maybe found a way of improving on it.

Then you have the people who want to make the off the wall different non traditional pizza only. just because its different-If your just catering to a select few thats fine,but for most pizza people thats just more garbage to sift through thats tying up resources that could have been used in improving the main dish and to some basically a non choice not worth the effort of comment or consideration.

I think a lot of us wargammers like the big well known battles being covered because of the large variety of toys that come with those battles,and with that variety you have the ability to create other situations and battles outside of these major events limited only by your imagination.

But if you specialize and hone in on one single minor event,then your basically just stuck with recreating that single event only.novel idea at 1st glance but quite boring after the initial glow wears off.

[Flashburn]

Well a suprising number of NO! Not agains!

[Dane49]

Maybe you should have worded your poll differently,and asked what campaign and what theatre would you like to see most represented by this series in mod form.

Graviteam has no intention of deviating much at least in the near future from offering content other than pre Summer 1943 Russian front.

Some other things to consider also,is this game has no map editor so your basically stuck with modding for things associated with the current maps if your trying to recreate anything close to plausible and realistic.

Me personally if I was polled on what I would most like to see as a modding effort for this game is-

I would go with including an American force to be used in quick battles.
A lot of the areas on these maps remind me of areas in Michigan,Wisconsin and Canada where I used to hunt deer with my uncle when I was a teenager.I sometimes wonder what it would be like to create some fantasy  battles where the Germans  have invaded the United States and are battling American forces in some winter setting outside of some major midwestern northern industrial center.Or Soviet forces have invaded the US following some major post war victory over NATO forces in Europe.Or American forces doing the same in Russia.

I'm sure I'll never see this but that would be my wish.Right now,I would settle for just a Panther tank.

[Flashburn]

Heres what parts of Tunsia looked like late 42 - Feb 43.   Note its NOT a desert.  =)

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/north-african-campaign

go down to the ones with LIFE all over them.   They expand nicly.  Vary good pics of engineers blowing up german dead tanks. 

[wodin]

I'd go for Tunisia..but you'll get loads complaining the Americans are useless

[Flashburn]

I'd go for Tunisia..but you'll get loads complaining the Americans are useless

Because they where up too Feb. 43.  After a certain gerneral was FIRED and everything got reorganized........they where not.  Oh and Patton took over.  LOL

US ARMY had to get blooded the hard way and finally drop wierd ideas about modern warfare.  Like tanks need be massed.  But parceled out to support infantry sort of things.  tHEY HAD IT backwards even though THEY knew better.  But the British honestly where not that much better on the western side of torch.  8th army had it down more or less but they where rushing WESt not East.  Oh and in the wrong country to do any good.  The French after they decided what side to be on where just screwed as they lacked EVERYTHING.  And Germans did not have enough supplys to do much.  But what they did do for 3 months to the US army was maul it really bad.  In the end it work out.  After early battles German impression of US forces was well equiped but not vary good.  They failed to realize just how quick it was able to get its shit straight.  After enough blood was spilled everything got reorganized.  The m3 lee went bye bye and the m4 sherman became the main tank.  Arty was arranged for massive massed fire missions by March where every gun in range would fire on one target on demand.  Became standard US practice right on up to today.  More freedom was granted to commanders on the ground BIG one there.  Started to mass armor to be effective.  By march april the US Army was not the same it had been in Nov 42.  The Germans all of a sudden where fighting a MUCH better blooded Army.  All of the sudden they ran out of tanks.  And on to Sicily everyone went. 

Became clear to many that operation sleghammer would NOT work (43 invasion plan of Europe) and of course the British out manuvered (thank gawd) the US high command at Casablanca conference.  Would not make Stalin happy but had an invasion of main land Europe happened they would have been thrown back into the sea in 43.

[wodin]

Some German general said ..think it was Rommel...he hadn't seen worse troops in combat..he then added..he hadn't seen troops improve as quickly and aswell as the Americans..

Oh I'd vote for Tunisia now..but I can't as I voted not again before the poll was changed...

[Dane49]

The American forces in Tunisia at this time were still very green and were led in some cases by men whose position was owed more to politics then tried and tested combat leadership command ability.

Kasserine was not the only battle the Americans fought in Tunisia,and while some units in this battle fought very badly,others did quite well.

The American units in this theatre were going through an initial combat trial that identified and shook out the leaders that were ineffective in their respective positions and eventually replaced them with leaders that were proven to be of a more stable and combat savy nature.

These changes didn't happen overnight and by the time the North African campaign successfully concluded and the new tried and tested US Army landed in Sicily a very different American Army emerged that in some instances proved that not only did they learn from their mistakes during the Tunisian campaign,but also proved that they were the new masters of the battlefield,and were destined to not only lead the entire Allied war effort in Europe,but eventually triumph in every campaign hence forward till the end of the war.

This is a very good site for the closing campaigns in North Africa 1942-3
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-MTO-NWA/index.html

[Flashburn]

Dane do you have any sources on indivual actions in Late dec42 - early March 43 for tunisia?  Most of the stuff I know is of the general type. 

[Dane49]

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2-23Ba-c11.html

New Zealanders in Tunisia