Manual for Graviteam Tactics ??

[sandman2575]

@lavish -- that's a level of detail far beyond what I need.  Certainly it would be nice to be clued into those kind of questions, but from my point of view, I can get by with much less technical detail and still enjoy the game -- but to each his own.

No, I'd be satisfied with clear explanations of the new game features, particularly as pertains to the new C&C rules.  Let me say that I like these features -- I think they are a very interesting addition.  I just don't understand what is going on with them for the most part, even after having used the ingame Help mode.  For example, the Help tutorial says absolutely nothing about what the flashing icons over the units mean.  I know some posted that information in this thread, but that's exactly my point:  why do we need to go searching for all these things, cobbling them together piece by piece, a snippet here, a nugget there?  Why can't this information be compiled in an easy reference guide, if not a manual?

And not just clarification of the in-game features, but of the patches and the patching process.  Case in point -- on another forum, someone posted that the Polygon update is the same as the District Update.  Hey, news to me!  But I guess I should have just known that.  Also, the Polygon / District update is supposed to go at the top of the update list (in #1 slot) in order for it to take effect.  

Is that true??  

[andrey12345]

While I do not see any reasonable explanation why we need a manual, but the fears and the remnants of the dark ages: so all wargames must have a manual, manual is comfortably, I love when there is a manual, I'm afraid to use the built-in help system, etc. I'm sorry but this is absolutely not the arguments.

[Aces]

.  Also, the Polygon / District update is supposed to go at the top of the update list (in #1 slot) in order for it to take effect.  

Is that true??  

Hi mate AFAIK the polygon update should go before the DLCs in the list.

The rule is that the game uses the files included in the add-ons from  top down in the list eg. the patch needs to be highest unless you use the hi-res skins which need to0 be higher than the patch etc..

Regards

Aces 

Edit, I think that much of the confusion is in the translation. For example, I was looking for the German radiomen included in the patch. Andrey kindly replied suggesting that I look in the Artillery Chapter. The problem is what "chapter"?, a chapter in  the manual, couldn't be, a bit in the in-game help, nope. I discovered that one should edit the troops before staring a quick battle and change the fireteam leaders and/or battery commander for their radio (rad) version. This info isn't in the patch change-log, it's not in any patch release notes,  the online help and not so intutitive unless you are "in the know". That's a pretty simple example of the problem, as for their benefiit that's another issue.

[sandman2575]

Thanks Aces --

[Aces]

Pleasure mate, basically the game uses whatever is higher in the list so the polygons are used instead of those in the DLCs and likewise the high res textures are used instead of the lower res ones in the game and patch.

Regards

Aces

[sandman2575]

While I do not see any reasonable explanation why we need a manual, but the fears and the remnants of the dark ages: so all wargames must have a manual, manual is comfortably, I love when there is a manual, I'm afraid to use the built-in help system, etc. I'm sorry but this is absolutely not the arguments.

There is only one sentence here that is actually correct:  "this is absolutely not the argument."

Yes, the argument is NOT:  'I'm afraid to use the built-in help system, and every wargame should have a manual.'

THIS IS NOT THE ARGUMENT. NO ONE IS ARGUING THIS.

Would you care to respond to any of the points that actually address the problem?  

An updated manual would be nice, but I agree, it is not necessary.  What IS necessary is a clear explanation of the new game features.  In more depth than the shallow, cursory in-game help tutorial provides.  In a single, easy to refer to place, e.g. a Quick Guide pdf.  

That this straightforward request strikes you as so unreasonable is frankly amazing to me.  Your response really boils down to:  "Why do you expect us to explain our game to you?  Are you living in the dark ages? Why are you afraid to use the magnificent in-game help tutorial we've provided?"

If Graviteam's business strategy consists of insulting its paying customers with patronizing non-responses to legitimate concerns, well congratulations, you're succeeding brilliantly.

[andrey12345]

"What IS necessary is a clear explanation of the new game features. "
I absolutely agree with that. Not only that, I have long time been trying this point to explain to every player.
As a result, I hear - give us a manual. But manual is the most bad solution for clear explanation of the new game features? Why is it needed?

[budd]

I've went thru the in game help, it's not enough. I don't care if it's a manual or pdf or wiki or a more in depth in game help. I just want the information without having to go to the forums to ask or looking thru old threads to get the info, don't care how i get the information. All i can tell Graviteam is that learning all the game features beyond the basics is not a quick process and turned me off when i first tried the demo and it took some positive forum posts and a good sale to get me on board, new players aren't going to stick with it. Its a great game and has great support and i thank you for that, but the documentation support is lacking and it seems like we are all just chasing are tail at this point regarding the documentation of new and changed features. most of the stuff i learned about the game's earlier versions was from redmarkus's posts over at matrix. I just think people are getting frustrated with asking and not understanding why they cant have clear explanations of the changes in the game so they can enjoy it to the fullest, i mean it seems like a reasonable request from your customers.

[sandman2575]

^ Budd, I agree with this 100%.  What you just summed up in a few sentences is what I've been trying to get across (with less success!) in my last few posts. 

Just one more time, so I can be as clear as possible --

Operation Star is an excellent game.  No one is criticizing the content of the game.  We all think it's excellent and a game that Graviteam should be proud of.

We just want more help from Graviteam with making sense of a game that is constantly evolving and becoming deeper and more complex.  We like the complexity.  There are just a lot of things that are unclear that we would like more information on.

Unfortunately, the in-game Help tutorial does not provide enough information.  It gives an overview of the new features, but it leaves a lot of important details out -- details that we can't just make sense of on our own.

A lot of us are finding that the * only * way we get more information about these things is by luck or chance -- when we read the right thread in the right forum.  This is frustrating and inefficient. 

I think a lot of us are saying "a new manual would be great" because we feel there is a lot of game content that remains unclear.  A manual would be a traditional way of covering this material, and collecting it all in one, easy-to-reference place.

However, I don't think anyone really feels it HAS to be a manual.  Like Budd says, we don't care how the information is presented.  But we do want the information in a way that is easy to reference.


-I don't mean to speak for the entire APOS community.  I'm just trying to sum up my own position, and what seems to be the position of several people who have been posting on this subject.  I think it's a subject that matters to a lot of your devoted English-speaking fans of APOS.

My apologies for getting a little angry about this in my previous posts.  I just felt like I (along with others) was trying to make a reasonable request for more help with understanding the game that was getting brushed aside. 

[Aces]

I fully agree with the two previous posters. What is required is one place where one can obtain clear and detailed information on the operation of the latest features. Likewise, I don't care if it is a WIKI, a webpage, a PDF or even a text file in the way of patch release notes as long as it explains the operation and usage of the new features and/or icons etc..

How are newbies to the game supposed to get this information and fully enjoy the game when there is no such resource?. The changelog mentions many new features but many of these are lacking in any, or adequate explanation. I fully suspect that many, including myself, are failing to get anywhere near the full potential and enjoyment from the game because of this.

The game is simply superb both in its attention to detail, scope and complexity but it is this very complexity, that as things currently stand and without clearly written help information, is also a weakness and source of confusion and frustration.

Kind regards

Leigh

[andrey12345]

Let's look at things realistically. Yes good to be healthy and wealthy, but we are surrounded by lots of poor and / or sick people, who are not stupid not to understand that as well. And from that you will ask them to become healthy and well, nothing because the rich will not change, right? Probably out for obvious reasons.
So is the case with the description of the game, manuals, etc. Even if all of the players at the same time all the time will be asked to give more guides and descriptions, their number does not increase. Especially in English. At least until the developers will not owned a magic wand or something that obviously did not happen.

What are the realistic options:
1) There is no manual at all.
2) In-help is always relevant, but covers several points less than in the ideal version of manual.
3) Manual in which there is a lot, but most of the descriptions of date does not correspond to what is in the game or poorly translated.

I think the 2nd is most sensible option from realistic possible.

[sandman2575]

Andrey -- it sounds like we have established, then, that a new manual is not going happen.  And it sounds like even something like a pdf "Quick Guide" is not going to happen.  So that leaves us with the In-help tutorial or other in-game options.

Is it realistic that the in-help tutorial can be improved?  A lot of us are resisting the "just use the in-game tutorial" idea because we don't feel the in-game help is all that helpful.  It touches on basic points, but it leaves a lot unexplained.

Another thing that would help:  more tooltips.

I think the tooltips are pretty good, but it would be very helpful to have tooltips that explain some more of the new icons on the UI, particularly the ones having to do with Communications. 

[andrey12345]

Andrey -- it sounds like we have established, then, that a new manual is not going happen.  And it sounds like even something like a pdf "Quick Guide" is not going to happen.  So that leaves us with the In-help tutorial or other in-game options.

Its real state of things, not dreams. We are not magicians, something we can do, and some have not.

Is it realistic that the in-help tutorial can be improved? 

Ingame help system improved from patch to patch.

I understand that the first version of the ingame help were far from ideal and now it's not perfect, but still answer the question what is it? or watch some moments of the game is quite allow.

It touches on basic points, but it leaves a lot unexplained.

Such as what? While I have not seen a single answer to that question would not be found in-game helper from March 2013 patch. Absolutely all new icons and features there described.
I understand that for this to be run, it is very difficult to press as much as the whole one button  . But still.

I think the tooltips are pretty good, but it would be very helpful to have tooltips that explain some more of the new icons on the UI, particularly the ones having to do with Communications. 

No, in this case, it is unnecessary means to achieving that goal.
Icons appear quickly and disappear just as quickly the use mouse to catch them in the hope that will have time to read a couple of seconds what it would be mockery on the players. Such ugliness will not.

[budd]

[/quote]
Such as what? While I have not seen a single answer to that question would not be found in-game helper from March 2013 patch. Absolutely all new icons and features there described.
[/quote]

i'll take a stab at this. Regarding the AI control what are the limits of this feature? Can I put as many units under AI control as i want?  What do they do if your defending and there under AI control during deployment how will they deploy? If you switch them during a battle to AI control how are their orders decided upon? I tried during the beta putting units besides the arty and wire laying under AI control after i deployed them, but they just seemed to die in place. Is this feature just for the arty and wire laying units?

[Flanker15]

Such as what? While I have not seen a single answer to that question would not be found in-game helper from March 2013 patch. Absolutely all new icons and features there described.

The coloured lines that emanate too and from units when you have the "command radius" button on.

Make the Help not skip over bits if that part of the UI is hidden and instead unhide it automatically.

A glossary of symbols (and their sub symbols) and their meaning on 1 list.

[Txema]

Another question:

What do the different colors of the flares mean?

[Flanker15]

Green = go
Red = stop
purple = air target mark

[budd]

that is actually covered in the in game help, i made a youtube video of all the comm stuff in the in game help. The flare stuff is just after the 2 min. mark.    Hit the gear thing on the video window and pick 720 for better viewing.

[Tanker]

The buttons and tabs are fairly well covered in the help topics with some confusing exceptions and some gaps.  Some of the deeper questions as Budd asks above are impossible to cover this way.

[andrey12345]

Regarding the AI control what are the limits of this feature?

What is a limits means?

Can I put as many units under AI control as i want? 

Can you just send all units to attack as you want?
Why do such things no one is interested, may be this also write in the manual - you can send 1, 2, 3, ..., 10, ...100,...1000 units simultaneously or is there much mouse clicks you can do during one battle as you want?

Simply try it, this a game not a reactor control. One of the main purpose of entertainment through research.

What do they do if your defending and there under AI control during deployment how will they deploy?

During deploy you can not pass under the control of one AI or change this aspect. This question does not make sense.

If you switch them during a battle to AI control how are their orders decided upon?

Exactly the same. Well, it's very easy to check in the game. What is the sense to cover such issues somewhere? 

I tried during the beta putting units besides the arty and wire laying under AI control after i deployed them, but they just seemed to die in place. Is this feature just for the arty and wire laying units?

All the units in which it makes big sense to be under the control of the AI ​​sent automatically (you can easily see it yourself). The rest of your choice.