How to defend against Tanks!!!

[Tanker]

Well, fragmentation grenades won't do much, even above the engine compartment.  12mm of steel armor would be proof against a frag grenade.  A shaped charge, a satchel charge or flaming gasoline is another story.  IMHO.

Nice picture of the mine.

[Fritz]

In game Germans platoon commander section have 1 HHI-3 magnetic mine, and they use it against tanks

[Aces]

Hi Fritz,

I know that the command sections have one of these weapons but I've never seen them use it, they're usually cut down well before they have any chance to use it or any other hand-held weapons such as satchel charges etc..

In a word, German infantry versus even one lone T-34 or KV tank are, quite simply, dead meat irrespective of light conditions, available cover/concealment or lack of visibility by the attacking tank.

I wouldn't expect every German infantryman/Panzergranadier/Pioneer to be a "hero" quite the reverse but the chances of at least disabling a Soviet medium or heavy tank let alone destroying one using hand-held AT weapons are pretty much nill as things stand. I've played quite a few campaigns from start to finish and can't remember the last time, if ever, I saw a German soldier disable let alone destroy a Soviet tanks using hand-held AT weapons, it is such a rarity.

Regards

Aces

Edit: This is an interesting read http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt07/german-tactics-against-tanks.html translation of a German document issued early in 1942.

[Fritz]

Hello.

In game this mine HHI have very limited drop range, and of course soldier can miss, I saw few times how it's worked, good but not 100%, if germans had more then 1 mine at platoon, it was effective.

I remember was a big discussion on Sukhoi.ru, I asked Andrey "teach" infantry don't drop it, but came close and put on tank, but...

My think most big problem in game this is bad soldiers animation and behavior, then they stay up in full growth before do something, or then soldiers very often stand up from tranches to look at tank and die. And I think this problem give so big infantry casualties in tank VS man battle.   

Uf... My english so bad... Looks like google can translate better, that I writing

[Aces]

Hi Fritz,

I understand exactly what you are saying.

I think that you are absolutely correct about the soldier animation and standing up, a good point, they do seem to take un-necessary risks. I think that they also behave very strangely as if the don't actually react correctly to an enemy tank. I also think that you make good points regarding the correct usage of the AT grenades and bundle charges and also their very limited number.

BTW: Do you know if Nightpostman is still working on updating his uniform mod?.

Kind regards

Aces 

[FB_AGA]

Soviet doctrine advocated attacking entrenched infantry or infantry in built up villages or urban areas with tanks (one or two tanks in game) alone?  I'd like to see a reference for that.  Also, of all those tank riders photos that I see, none were taken in 1942?

Not exactly.

In general there were three different variants of using tanks in attack in 1942 by RKKA.

1) An assault of a strong point.

Right, tanks usually carried an infantry with them but when an atack began infantry and tanks were performing completely separately. Why did it happened?

First of all the doctrine was that the best defence of the tank it's speed. So, when the attack began tanks on a full speed was approaching the target positions firing on the move. When they had reached the target zone they should had wheeling round and destroy everything with cannons, machine guns and caterpillars.
At the same time infantry was lying far away under the enemy fire and didn't move (by german doctrine the main role of infantry was to cut off enemy tanks from their infantry).
So, tanks were acting alone. It was heavily critiсized by the command but in 1942 it was almost imposible to make infantry follow the tanks.

2) At the time when the front line was smashed and germanes were advancing often to save time for creating a new defence line there were organized tank groups (about a coy or a platoon) to act alone. Their aim was to move to german's rear positions and either set ambushes or actively hunt everything they could. In this case villages were one of main targets as usually supply depots were there.

3) As artillery support when 1-3 tanks were firing targets at the range of 1-3 km.

Also we are talking in terms of what happens in the game versus real life history.  Did a single unescorted soviet tank stop next to some occupied trenches and idle about or proceed at night through a forest to hunt infantry?  Of course not.  I do agree with you that, historically, soviet tanks without infantry pushed past or bypassed German infantry to exploit breakthroughs.  That's not what's happening in the game.

I completely agree that when we see in the game tanks searching for single soldier in a forest it is totaly wrong. They should either defend positions they have taken or to move forward beyond the map (unfortunately it is not possible at present time).

But if we are talking about the night. It was recomended to use tanks in full moon nights. Moreover, tanks and infantry should atack separately from different sides (but strongly not from opposit) and the main goal of tanks was to make panic.
As an example unsuccesful attacks of russian tanks (alone!) on the hill 213.9 defended by a coy with PAK40s of 306 ID at the night of 17-18 july 1943. Future Mius polygon.

[FB_AGA]

As to magnetic anti-tank mines,the Soviet military never issued nor even developed a magnetic anti-tank mine.Neither did the U.S.,the British,the Canadians,nor any other Allied country.Only the German Army and the Imperial Japanese Army used magnetic anti-tank mines.In November 1942 German soldiers were issued the Hafthohlladung 3 Mine,Land,Shaped charged Magnetic mine containing 6 pounds of High Explosives and capable of blowing a hole in the armor of any known tank.Fearing that the Allied Forces might develop a similar weapon ,zimmerit,a paste that prevented magnetic mines from being attached to a tank's armor was developed.Zimmerit was a solution to a problem that never transpired.And the myth of the brave Russian soldier running up to a German Panzer and attaching a magnetic mine is just that...a myth.

The above is a post I copied from another forum.  I do not know the qualifications of the author or the accuracy of his post but if he is correct on the date of issuing the Hafthohlladung 3 Mine to German troops, they were not completely unarmed against isolated, and buttoned tanks. 

He is right about HHL 3. But for example in the january 1943 in PzA4 (Taranovka, Rakitnoe, Krasnaya Polyana) there were about 60 HHL3 in a hole army. While in the july 1943 there were more than 12000 in the 6th Army (Mius).

At the same time it is reckoned 678 "Haftladungen" in the 6th army ammo roster on july 10th 1942.
There were defenetly some magnetic anti-tank grenades before november 1942 in German Army. It is stated in the interrogation report of the german AT gun crew for the september 1942 at Sinyavino.

My level of german is very low.  So I have no idea either this "Haftladungen" is something anti tank or else.

[Fritz]

Some time ago I wrote a little article in GravitacWiki, about that how to defeat tanks, unfortunately it's only at russian, and I can't do a good translating of it, but may be google give possibility to understand main line, or may be somebody will translate it

I hope it can be useful for players

http://ru.gravitac.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Тактика

BTW: Do you know if Nightpostman is still working on updating his uniform mod?.

Looks like not, I have't seen him on Sukhoi for a long time.

[lavish]

http://ru.gravitac.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Тактика

It's an informative "how to" manual that I recommend to check out.

Google translate is fine (though not fluent) - at least I could understand it well.

[Aces]

Hi Fritz,

Thank you for posting the link, I did a google translation and could pretty much understand it, it is a very useful guide. thanks also for the info on Nightpostman, it would be a pity if there was no way to fully make his excellent mod compatible with the latest patch.

Thanks again and kind regards

Leigh

[Fritz]

Glad to hear that google can do well translating, may be it will help to somebody have more fun playing this game

[Aces]

It has taught me a few things I didn't know, very good informative article thank you.

Regards

Aces

[Tanker]

Very nice guide.  Thank you.

[Flanker15]

So what I've gathered from this discussion is in future 2 things should be addressed both to do with lone unsupported tanks in close combat.

1: tanks are too good at acquiring man targets at extreme close range, in cover or otherwise.  WW2 tanks generally had only one set of close range eyes with the commander, the driver looked forward with a slightly limited FoV and low elevation view sometimes with an almost useless side port, the gunner was almost useless at spotting in close range thanks to his extremely limited FoV telescopic sight and side port, the commander was the only one with any kind of wide FoV 360 spotting with his cupola on German tanks but on Soviet tanks he had a little traversable periscope sight so he was limited like the gunner (on some of the tanks he was the gunner!).
This means that they're good at acquiring targets at long range but at close range a man could easily evade detection even while moving.

2: tanks are invincible at close range from infantry at close range with no AT weapons and tanks can target them easily.  A single tank at extreme close range shouldn't be able to survive even a single (brave) man attacking it with no at weapons without moving and a single tank shouldn't be able to hit men at extreme close range.  At near touching distance a man can easily out pace the weapon traversal time for the tank to avoid being hit and attack the tank by climbing on board and dismantling it's vulnerable components like the engine, fuel, optics and turret ring.  The tank would either have to move away or be disabled.
I don't know how to do tank melee attacks, in other tactical games it's literally just the infantry touches the tank and it gets damage on a dice roll.  I suppose they could run up and melee the tank lol.
The tank shooting the infantry could be done with AI that moves to avoid lines of fire when next to a tank and not in a trench or just resolved by the spotting issue.

[SSPEIPER]

I know its probably a stretch to animate, but even though troops cannot completely knock-out a tank without adequate AT capability, they should
be able to de-track a tank at close range. A squad can easily outmanoeuvre an individual tank and wedge something or a grenade bundle in the
running gear to throw the tracks and disable the tank.

As I said, maybe it could be done in a simple way graphically rather than having to animate it if its too time consuming for Graviteam.

I mean they have tanks crews get out and repair their tanks so there should be steps made to bridge these realism oversights within the game...

Definitely worth a look at IMO

PS...

I realised I could add units from the reinforcement pool (cant believe I had forgotten how to do that)....so I will attempt to turn the marauding T34's back
with 5cm AT's and Stukas..... Hopefully Rudel is amongst them as I am going to need him. 

[Tanker]

Check over on the Sim Hq graviteam forums.  Flashburn posted some pictures of German engineers tossing 3kg satchel charges at a marauding Russian tank and taking the track off.  So it can be done.

[FB_AGA]

I know its probably a stretch to animate, but even though troops cannot completely knock-out a tank without adequate AT capability, they should
be able to de-track a tank at close range. A squad can easily outmanoeuvre an individual tank and wedge something or a grenade bundle in the
running gear to throw the tracks and disable the tank.

By tests made in september 1941 by 9 Army (Soviet) grenade bundels of 5-7RGD33 or 6RGD33+400g of TNT could not break the track of Pz2 or Pz3. But T-34 has wider tracks while the bundel of 7xM-24 close to 7xRGD-33 and weaker than 6RGD33+400g expl.

At the same time russian 3KG AT mine (Jam-5) could not break the track of KV-1. Only a pair of mines.

[Flashburn]

As having been an armored crew dude......   Granted...some have worst vision to sides and back than current norm....like t34.  but it its in front of the vehicle a ww2 tank could have up to 5 pairs of eyes looking that way.  With at least 2 MG potentially engaging.  At close ranges of 10meters or so or more.........its gonna get spotted.  Only EXTREMELY close on the frontal arc could an infantry dude MAYBE not get spotted.  Sides are harder.  usually just the tank commander while buttoned can peek that way.  ANd back is even less likely to get checked out. 

OK in game....  The t34 you can walk your infantry up behind the tank and they will NOT get spotted until attacked.  Ditto with the stug's.  I have done this MANY times.  T34 you can usually sneak up on the sides as well.  The pz3 and 4 have real commander cupolas.  And they are modeled generally right.  In the model is a little dummy pointing where the vision devices are.  The config files set the view angles.  So ALL that is correctly modeled.  It is MUCH harder to sneak up with infantry on the kv1, pz3, pz4, pz2. It can be done....  Not totally sure how the game models that.  Likely depends on if it the view area, how long visable and skill level of tank.   

So if you know your target and it is alone.... you can sneak right up on these things.  Often times your infantry is spotted NOT by the tank your sneaking up on.........but by its buddy.  Like life.  its not JUST that tanks set of eyes but what is with it too. 

SO if attacking vehicles know where it can look.  IF it has REAL blind spots like the t34 use em if its isolated from other units.  If it has decent all around vision like kv1, pz2,3,4.... use terrain masking to try and get em close enough to stand a chance.  DO not bother with low moral or skill infantry units in this way.  As soon as 1 shot they dive and try and hide usually stopping their attack.   

SO in closing..... KNOW WHAT YOUR units can do.... Know what the enemy units can do. 

And even just throwing satchel charges, grenade bundles might brake enough stuff on the tank that it drives off all broken.  Or get a mob kill of engine or tracks.  ITs ALL MODELED in game!.  Do not get obsessed with KILLING the tank.  All you need to do is STOP it from attacking.  It will be many turns usually before it gets repaired and thrown back at you. 

[Tanker]

That's all very good info, especially from a former armored crew Flash.

But would your crew have taken the tank and stopped near hostile buildings or right next to trenches, at night without night vision?  Probably not.

And with all of GT's emphasis on not micromanaging, shouldn't a tough as nails AI sergeant in your infantry take it upon himself to sneak a tank hunter squad up behind the blind spot on a vulnerable tank?  That should not be something the battalion or company commander needs to orchestrate.

[Flashburn]

That's all very good info, especially from a former armored crew Flash.

But would your crew have taken the tank and stopped near hostile buildings or right next to trenches, at night without night vision?  Probably not.

And with all of GT's emphasis on not micromanaging, shouldn't a tough as nails AI sergeant in your infantry take it upon himself to sneak a tank hunter squad up behind the blind spot on a vulnerable tank?  That should not be something the battalion or company commander needs to orchestrate.

On the tank hunting..  Not sure how you could program that behavior right as the open nature of the game.  Sort of takes a human.  The ai on its own MIGHT do ok if in towns or lots of bushes.  Heck...it does do a pretty decent job of it.  With open areas... well that really needs a human brain.   I think something doing this would more often cause your guys getting wiped out than actually working right. 


The at night thing... I dont know.  sometimes with the conditions of weather and night they just do not get spotted.  Other times it does seem easy.  But I am pretty sure alot of this is getting spotted by other units.  Of course dont know. OR is the crew of a tank turned out?  That seems to have an effect on infantry spotted.  But alot of movements by your guys drastically increases the possibility of being spotted.   Sometime if they are just prone in an open field with bad weather or night they get spotted last second or even not at all. 

the ai DOES like to go RIGHT to the last know position of spotted enemy when it looses sight.  So a fraction of a second being spotted but not shot at COULD mean the tank goes right to that location.  Just guesses.  A lot of the problems that get reported I just dont really have.  I think it is the way I play  a lot of times.