Wooden fences or tank traps?

[Dane49]

How often do Russian T70 tanks get upended and immobilised by wooden fences in real life?

I've seen this happen in quite a few battles over the last year and had it happen again tonight.

[Flashburn]

LOL... probably not many.  Its a lite.. but not that lite.   

[Tanker]

It's the only way German infantry can defeat them without ATGs.

[Santini]

It's the only way German infantry can defeat them without ATGs.

SHUSH!

It is a well known historical fact that no German infantryman destroyed a tank before 1944.

[Flashburn]

It's the only way German infantry can defeat them without ATGs.

A t70?  I am pretty sure I have have had t60's at least killed by 7.92 AP ammo.   

[Santini]

There is quite a difference between the armor thickness from the t-60 to the t-70 :-)

[Flashburn]

No so much the behind of the vehicle. 

[Dane49]

I've taken out T70s with MGs.
My concern is why they have problems with wooden fences.
I'm pretty sure it's a bug.

I would think a T70 should have no problems plowing right through them.

[Tanker]

I'm surprised that a tank can be disabled by a machine gun by penetrating the armor.  Even a T70.  All tanks designed in the 1930s were designed to withstand small arms fire.  And 7.62mm mg is small arms.  I mean that was the purpose of WWI tanks. 

The in game encyclopedia says that the MG 34 and 42 are 7.92mm and that they can penetrate the bottom (10mm of armor) of the T70's hull, up to range of 340m.  To me, that means the tank has to be going over a ridge or elevation to expose the bottom.  Not a very common occurrence in game.  Couple that with how long it would be in that position should make knocking out T70's with machine guns very rare indeed.

Maybe it's the wooden fences that are exposing the bottoms and it's really the mg's that are knocking them out.

[whukid]

I'm surprised that a tank can be disabled by a machine gun by penetrating the armor.  Even a T70.  All tanks designed in the 1930s were designed to withstand small arms fire.  And 7.62mm mg is small arms.  I mean that was the purpose of WWI tanks. 

The in game encyclopedia says that the MG 34 and 42 are 7.92mm and that they can penetrate the bottom (10mm of armor) of the T70's hull, up to range of 340m.  To me, that means the tank has to be going over a ridge or elevation to expose the bottom.  Not a very common occurrence in game.  Couple that with how long it would be in that position should make knocking out T70's with machine guns very rare indeed.

Maybe it's the wooden fences that are exposing the bottoms and it's really the mg's that are knocking them out.

Yes, but the lack of everything else the Germans used to destroy tanks during this time calls for desperate measures.

[Flashburn]

I'm surprised that a tank can be disabled by a machine gun by penetrating the armor.  Even a T70.  All tanks designed in the 1930s were designed to withstand small arms fire.  And 7.62mm mg is small arms.  I mean that was the purpose of WWI tanks. 

The in game encyclopedia says that the MG 34 and 42 are 7.92mm and that they can penetrate the bottom (10mm of armor) of the T70's hull, up to range of 340m.  To me, that means the tank has to be going over a ridge or elevation to expose the bottom.  Not a very common occurrence in game.  Couple that with how long it would be in that position should make knocking out T70's with machine guns very rare indeed.

Maybe it's the wooden fences that are exposing the bottoms and it's really the mg's that are knocking them out.

Its the special pants armor piercing core AP ammo the Germans had.  Actually is still sometimes the case now.  Regular ball ammo... forget it.  Just depends what the perpetrator for the AP round is.  Could give a little boost.  BUT still has to be a close range and hit flat.  OH and hit something important if it get thru the armor.

[lavish]

OH and hit something important if it get thru the armor.

Or use gold ammo to quickly reduce the hit points!     

[andrey12345]

Use armor penetration epures please

[Tanker]

That's the 3 red lines right Andrey?  The most powerful round can only penetrate the bottom(blue line) out to 340m correct? 

How often is the bottom exposed?

Anyway we've gotten off Dane's topic of why wood fences are upending light tanks.

[andrey12345]

That's the 3 red lines right Andrey?

Yes

  The most powerful round can only penetrate the bottom(blue line) out to 340m correct? 

Yes, but all penetration data at 30 degrees from normal.
With intense MG fire in this case you can achieve rare penetrations on thin armor (up to 15 mm) even if probability (at 30 degs) is about zero.

[Dane49]

Maybe it's the wooden fences that are exposing the bottoms and it's really the mg's that are knocking them out.

No!
These tanks are having problems with fences long before they come under any type of hostile fire.
The after action status reports show no damage except immobilization.
I'm not concerned about penetration issues with the T70.

Last night I played a Quick Battle and had 3 T70s get themselves immobilized trying to negotiate a raised road on the Krasnaya Polyana map.
The T70 is terrible for off road movement in this game.

I know the tracks are thin but I'm not seeing the same thing with similar vehicles.
German armoured cars don't seem to have this problem and they are wheeled vehicles as opposed to a tracked vehicle.
I don't have this issue with the Bren carrier either.
I'm wondering if this is a bug or if there are some real life documented off road performance issues with the T70 that I'm unaware of.

This used to be a problem for all vehicles back around the time APOS came out.I thought the problem had been addressed and I no longer notice this as being a problem except in rare circumstances but the T70 seems to have been left out of this correction.

[Tanker]

It was a joke.  Guess I should have include the smiley.

[Dane49]

The smiley was there.
I didn't include it in the quote.

I don't have issues with the penetration tables for this game.
I was just wondering why the T70 has so many problems when maneuvering off road.

I generally play Quick Battles with Russian light tanks supported by infantry against dug in German infantry who only have hand held AT weapons for defense.
I had a few battles where the Germans completely dominated the Russians because the Russian tanks never supported the infantry assault.
At the end of the battle I usually find 1/2 of the T70s immobilized by terrain features.
I kind of expect that more from German tanks not Russian.

But I would think a T70 is heavy enough to run over wooden fences maybe not brick walls but since there are none on any of these maps I'm not going to worry about  those yet.

[Flashburn]

Great.... honestly rarely use the t70.  But this redo campaign I am doing I am using a few of them.   The t60 I have seen get stuck on fences but not that often.  Well they usually die real fast so maybe they would if they would last more than 2 minutes once the shooting starts...

[Dane49]

Haven't really looked at the T60.
I mostly use the T70 and T26 for the Russians in my QBs.
Sometimes I'll throw a T-34 or KV in the mix if I feel like using German AT guns or German medium tanks.

Once we have the Panther tank in this game I'll probably be inclined to play with the T-34s and KVs more often.

Tried to use the Tiger a few times but it has a tendency to dominate the battles and ruins the balance I'm looking for when I setting up and playing a Quick Battle.