Tank Shells

[Boom]

Have to say I'm fascinated by tanks, but really know little about them.

One thing that really has me puzzled is the type of shell various tanks could fire. When reading books I come across terms such as arrowhead projectile, solid shot, shaped-charged warheads, 17 pounders (which is only a 76mm isn't it?) and so on. Basically my knowledge is limited to the size of the cannon eg 75mm, 76.2mm, 88mm etc and how important velocity is for penetration.

But obviously there is far more to it. Currently I'm reading "Soviet Tanks and combat vehicles of WWII" by Stephen Zaloga. Something that caught my attention was the section discussing the reasoning behind developing the 85mm gun for the T-34, to whit: "Both the Grabin and Petrov design bureaux were directed to develop new 85mm guns based around the ammunition already in use in the 85mm anti-aircraft gun. Before these became available NKTP instructed the design teams to examine other alternatives. Morazov's team recognised that the 57mm ZiS-2 anti-tank gun had a better armour penetration than the F-34 76.2mm currently used by the T-34. The 76.2mm BP-350P HVAP rounds could penetrate 94mm of armour at 500m whereas the 57mm BP-571P HVAP round could penetrate 140mm of armour at that range. The problem with the 57mm shell was that it was optimised for anti-tank performance, compromising its ability to fire large, high explosive rounds".

So what I'm wondering is can anyone detail what were the various shells available for use during WWII? And which gun/tank could fire them. Alternatively point me towards books that may specifically address this.

[33lima]

Hi Boom

it's quite a big subject. Ian V Hogg's 'Encyclopedia of Ammunition' is a good starting point tho not specifically on tank ammo or WW2. The same author's 'German Artillery of WW2' is also useful as tank guns often had anti-tank gun versions and the book gives decent coverage of ammo, fuses and so on.

In short, nearly all tank guns fired two basic types of projectile - Armour Piercing(AP) and High Explosive (HE). The greatest variety was with AP ammo. The two main differences are:

(i) German AP projectiles were actually shells, with a small HE charge fused to detonate after penetration, while British and I think US AP projectiles were solid shot, with no HE. Both types started as plain AP then became APC (AP Capped, the cap designed to stop the round shattering on face-hardened armour) then APCBC (APC + Ballistic Cap, the latter to improve streamlining). German AP rounds are generally designated PanzerGranate 39 (PzGr 39), regardless of gun.

(i) the British 2pdr (40mm) and 6pdr (57mm) tank and anti-tank guns generally fired only solid shot, HE rounds not being issued, for the 2pdr at least.

There were also three other reasonably commonly-used anti-tank rounds:

1. HE Anti-Tank (HEAT) - this used a shaped charge warhead and had the advantages and disadvantages associated with that eg spinning in a rifled weapon tended to reduce the penetrative power of the penetrating jet but doesn't need fired from a high-veliocity weapon. The Germans made a lot of use if this, including issuing it to artillery pieces to give them an AT capability.

2. APCR (AP Composite Rigid) - called HVAP (High Velocity AP) by the Americans. Used in some weapons like the German  28mm light AT gun and the US 76mm (mostly reserved for Tank Destroyers) and many German tank and anti-tank guns but was often in short supply. This had a heavy tungsten sub-calibre core in a fixed sheath or carrier. Because it concentrated the kinetic energy of the AP round on impact onto a smaller spot it had higher penetration than the same gun's normal AP round; but because cross-sectional density was less, the velocity fell off faster and the extra penetration died off at longer ranges. German APCR rounds are generally designated PanzerGranate 40 (PzGr 40), reagrdless of gun.

3. AP Discarding Sabot (APDS) - a British development used by the 6pdr and later the 17pdr. Similar to APCR but the carrier - the 'sabot' - fell away after firing so the velocity didn't drop the way an APCR round's did.

Some nice illustrations of the different rounds here, which also give an idea of which wpn fired which round:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankammo2.htm

PS just found this, in the World of Tanks site, you can search by different criteria. It's presumably a list of what ammo is available in WoT, so not sure to what extent it represents real-life availability for example it lists HE rounds for both the 2pdr and the 6pdr:

http://www.worldoftanksguide.com/cgi-bin/gun_db.cgi



 

[Boom]

Thanks for that Lima, appreciate it.

Solid shot has me puzzled though. If the shell contains no explosive how does it knock out the enemy tank? Does it break up inside the tank and the shrapnel do the damage? So it's more likely to kill/wound crew than the tank itself?

And how can the tank doing the shooting know that they have actually hit the enemy tank? There'd be no explosion, no likely evidence.

The German shell design (with explosive warhead) seems the more practical. What system did the Soviets use?

[lockie]

And how can the tank doing the shooting know that they have actually hit the enemy tank? There'd be no explosion, no likely evidence.

According to memoirs of the soviet tankmen, they shoot at enemy tank, until they saw the fire. In SF there is cheat - orange square as tank mark. If u can see it, then tank is still alive.

[Tanker]

Thanks for that Lima, appreciate it.

Solid shot has me puzzled though. If the shell contains no explosive how does it knock out the enemy tank? Does it break up inside the tank and the shrapnel do the damage? So it's more likely to kill/wound crew than the tank itself?

And how can the tank doing the shooting know that they have actually hit the enemy tank? There'd be no explosion, no likely evidence.

The German shell design (with explosive warhead) seems the more practical. What system did the Soviets use?

A WW2 high velocity AP penetrator shell without explosive would cause auxiliary damage beyond the direct physical effect of the shell passing through the tank.  These would include molten metal and fragments from the hull or turret as well a the heat generated by the friction of  punching through the armor.  This heat and shrapnel, besides injuring and killing the crew, could ignite fuel and ammunition as well as disable equipment.

Beltran Y. Cooper in his book "Death Traps" relates how an 88 shell passed through the front armor of a Sherman, between the driver's legs (lucky driver), through the thick steel drive shaft, through the heavy oil in the transmission, through the engine and out the back of the tank, through the rear armor.

[33lima]

The German system of AP shell was superior on paper but not in practice. The HE charge was too small to do much damage and its cavity weakened the shell somewhat. Its fuse might not function properly or at all.

A penetration from a solid shot could do about as much damage, from the shot itself after penetration, or from fragments of the armour or anything struck inside the tank, or by ricocheting around the inside of the tank if it didn't have enough energy to get out the other side.

John Foley in my favourite tanker memoir 'Mailed Fist' recounts how his Churchill was killed by a Tiger he was attempting to stalk, whose round (which was either APCR solid shot or an AP shell whose filler did not explode) went through the front plate, decapitated the diver or bow gunner, somehow spun or deflected around Foley's body then passed through the fighting compartment rear bulkhead and into the engine compartment.

The HE filler would not of itself, I reckon, have assisted the firer in identifying a hit, given it's fused to detonate after penetration. Besides which, even a penetrating hit does not guarantee a kill. So, you keep on shooting until you are sure the target is dead eg crew seen bailing out or tgt goes on fire. There are many battlefield pictures of tanks hit and holed over and over again. 'Keep shooting until it changes shape' is reportedly how US tankers see it. The Tiger that knocked out Foley's Churchill (at very close range) immediately put a second round into it.