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Author Topic: Wow! I'm confused!  (Read 7517 times)
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WCG
Oberleutnant
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Posts: 23


« on: January 04, 2012, 12:23:24 AM »

OK, I bought the game and successfully installed it. That's about all of the success I've had so far. The tutorial was just maddening. I finally turned it off. I did watch a few YouTube video clips of the gameplay. (That's why I bought the game, in fact.)

With no idea where I was supposed to start, I chose the first scenario. In the strategic overview, I had one army I could move. All of the rest were encircled. And after I moved that one army, one of my others - down to the left, all by itself, completely unable to move - was attacked. Fine. So I jumped into that battle. I guess my problem is that I've no idea what I'm supposed to be doing there.

Supposedly, I've got enemies who will probably attack from the northwest. I've got more enemies on the east, including one bunch moving up from the distant southeast. It's night, so I thought I'd scoot my guys to the north in the darkness, before the enemy arrived. There's good cover up that way,if they can keep quiet and get there. Then, maybe they could head west to the crossroads. That might put them behind the enemies who are attacking, or at least closer to being able to hook up with my encircled armies to the north.

Well, I had no idea if that was what I was supposed to do or not, but it seemed to make sense to try to break out of a trap.

But when I tried that, I couldn't get the mortar team to move. They're just two guys, and apparently they can't carry their mortar. And I can't figure out any way to get them to leave it, either. So does that just mean I'm supposed to sit there while enemies come at me from two sides (after pounding me with artillery first)?

If that's what I'm supposed to do, fine. But the game is so confusing that I have no idea if that's true, or if I'm just missing something. Please don't tell me I have to go through that damned tutorial! Honestly, it's just unbelievably bad. I had a hard time sticking with it as long as I did (which wasn't very long at all).

Apparently, a mortar team can't move from where they're placed on a map? So if I don't want to just leave them behind (and I assume we're not supposed to do that), then my only option is just to stay put and let the enemy come to me?

That's fine, if so. I'll play it that way. But the game gives me no indication that that's what I'm supposed to be doing. This game looks like it might be fun, if I can get passed the interface. But it would sure help to have some better instructions!

Could someone tell me what I'm supposed to do here? Thanks!
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Flanker15
Generalmajor
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Posts: 490


« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2012, 08:44:12 AM »

Mortars should be able to move as normal, unless it's lost crew so it can't be carried anymore.
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Capt Sam
Major
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Posts: 99


« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2012, 12:42:15 PM »


 This game looks like it might be fun, if I can get passed the interface. But it would sure help to have some better instructions!



The interface is . . . challenging.  Its actually better now that it was in AP Kharkov (not sure if you've played APK).  I suggest starting with a defensive operation.  There's a USSR defensive operation, but I can't remember the name.  Let the AI face the pressure of attacking at first to learn the game.

For me, learning the UI is trail and error, mostly error.  Yeah, I'm with you: forget the tutorial!

I would suggest going in the options and having the game pause for every event.  I mean EVERY event.  No detail is too small in this game.  When the game pauses, go to the tactical overview map, and figure out what in the hell is going on and where its happening.  (We can actually control units from the overhead map now, thank you!)  I like to make sure I always know what the hell is going on before I un-pause the game.  Also there's a great line-of-sight option (that wavy-looking button on the UI).

A 2 hour game can last me 3-4 hours in real life, because I like pausing and thinking.  For me, its a little slower paced than a Close Combat 3 game, but smoother than a turn-based game like Steel Panthers.  I absolutely love the game this way, where I can soak up the details and action, like reading a book.  Thank goodness we can save when leaving the game, BUT DO NOT CHANGE OPTIONS between saves or lose them!  Huh?  What the?

The patching system is also confusing, in my opinion.

If you can crack the UI, you will have one excellent game to enjoy!
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 01:04:31 PM by Capt Sam » Logged
andrey12345
Graviteam
Generalfeldmarschall
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Posts: 6642


Jerk developer


« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2012, 02:02:39 PM »

With no idea where I was supposed to start, I chose the first scenario. In the strategic overview, I had one army I could move.
This is not an army, a battalion, regiment maximum. And one "unit" is just a platoon. Very small unit of the standards of war  Grin

Supposedly, I've got enemies who will probably attack from the northwest. I've got more enemies on the east, including one bunch moving up from the distant southeast. It's night, so I thought I'd scoot my guys to the north in the darkness, before the enemy arrived. There's good cover up that way,if they can keep quiet and get there. Then, maybe they could head west to the crossroads. That might put them behind the enemies who are attacking, or at least closer to being able to hook up with my encircled armies to the north.


Well, I had no idea if that was what I was supposed to do or not, but it seemed to make sense to try to break out of a trap.

But when I tried that, I couldn't get the mortar team to move. They're just two guys, and apparently they can't carry their mortar. And I can't figure out any way to get them to leave it, either. So does that just mean I'm supposed to sit there while enemies come at me from two sides (after pounding me with artillery first)?

If that's what I'm supposed to do, fine. But the game is so confusing that I have no idea if that's true, or if I'm just missing something. Please don't tell me I have to go through that damned tutorial! Honestly, it's just unbelievably bad. I had a hard time sticking with it as long as I did (which wasn't very long at all).

Full tactical manual in English (in pdf)
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3475901/Tactical_manual_in_English_for.html#Post3475901


Apparently, a mortar team can't move from where they're placed on a map? So if I don't want to just leave them behind (and I assume we're not supposed to do that), then my only option is just to stay put and let the enemy come to me?

Moved but if not tired.

The snow is extremely heavy to carry cargo (like heavy mortars or MGs with ammo). Tired soldiers will be very reluctant to follow orders to carry heavy weapons. 320 Infantry Division came out of the encirclement - a month now without a rest and recharge. All the soldiers tortured a few (in game too).

That's fine, if so. I'll play it that way. But the game gives me no indication that that's what I'm supposed to be doing. This game looks like it might be fun, if I can get passed the interface. But it would sure help to have some better instructions!
Manuals Smiley
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3475901/Tactical_manual_in_English_for.html#Post3475901

A few tips:
- Do not pull our troops needlessly, give your AI to fight (place it and give only common orders)
- Remember, losing a battle (or even all) does not lead to defeat in operation, think about it calmly.
- At night - use a arty spotter to take flares to illuminate the direction of the enemy movements.

In the settings you can turn on to pause the game cleaned shading and fog.

And install a patch and polygons update Smiley

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Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
andrey12345
Graviteam
Generalfeldmarschall
******
Posts: 6642


Jerk developer


« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2012, 02:15:54 PM »

The interface is . . . challenging. 
I would say do not such as in other games Wink But the complexity is simpler than in any RTS (I have said nothing about the wargames  Grin).
In the end, pressing the space bar can be very simple orders menu.

For me, learning the UI is trail and error, mostly error.  Yeah, I'm with you: forget the tutorial!
The main problem is that players want to somehow control each unit individually, it unnaturally for a real war and unnatural for our game. Never do this!
Choose a battle group (some tanks, infantry platoon and any SPGs) and give it a general order - for example, attack in a given direction in such formation and etc...
And forget about it:)

I would suggest going in the options and having the game pause for every event.  I mean EVERY event.  No detail is too small in this game.  When the game pauses, go to the tactical overview map, and figure out what in the hell is going on and where its happening.  (We can actually control units from the overhead map now, thank you!)  I like to make sure I always know what the hell is going on before I un-pause the game.  Also there's a great line-of-sight option (that wavy-looking button on the UI).
My opinion is totally another Grin: Do not try to control whether all, let the AI to fight. Lose this battle, no fear, you have a lot of troops (especially after the current patch), be sure you win in next battle (may be after 10  Grin). Your task is to win in the whole operation not a single battle!

The patching system is also confusing, in my opinion.
But as reinforced concrete  Grin. If the patch is buggy - you can roll back to any version of the game without breaking.
And see what is connected and working or not.
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Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
WCG
Oberleutnant
**
Posts: 23


« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2012, 04:14:00 PM »

This is not an army, a battalion, regiment maximum. And one "unit" is just a platoon. Very small unit of the standards of war  Grin

Yeah, I figured that "army" wasn't the right word, though I didn't know what was. Heh, heh. I am a native speaker of English, just with no military experience and little interest in the jargon.

And I downloaded the manual from GamersGate. It's just hard to remember everything when playing the game.


Quote
The snow is extremely heavy to carry cargo (like heavy mortars or MGs with ammo). Tired soldiers will be very reluctant to follow orders to carry heavy weapons. 320 Infantry Division came out of the encirclement - a month now without a rest and recharge. All the soldiers tortured a few (in game too).

So they start out tired? They didn't look tired. Doesn't their stamina go down when they're tired? They've got 100 stamina, so I figured that being tired wasn't the problem.

And they're sitting on a road. I tried to keep them to the road, too, when ordering the move, but that didn't help. They're just immobile. (It would help, when we give an order that soldiers can't obey, if we were given some indication that the order failed, and of why they can't obey it. If they just won't obey an order, I suppose that's different. But if they can't, it would be helpful to know why.)


Quote
A few tips:
- Do not pull our troops needlessly, give your AI to fight (place it and give only common orders)

OK, so I was supposed to just sit tight and wait for the enemy to come to me? There was no indication of that, and the game looked like it was giving me a lot of freedom to try other tactics. That's why I was confused.


Quote
- Remember, losing a battle (or even all) does not lead to defeat in operation, think about it calmly.

I fully expected to lose here, at least in my first attempt. I thought I'd probably fail in my attempt to break the encirclement. But it seemed foolish just to sit and take it, too. As I say, there seemed to be a lot of freedom to try different things. But if my guys can't move, I guess that's that.  Smiley

I'm not being critical. As the title of this post indicated, I was just confused about what I was supposed to be doing.


Quote
- At night - use a arty spotter to take flares to illuminate the direction of the enemy movements.

I have no idea how to order flares. I guess I'll have to look that up in the manual. But I have yet to see an enemy soldier. I didn't get that far. (However, they were pounding my former positions with artillery while I was leaving - or, in the case of the mortar team, trying to leave - so that had looked like a smart move, at least at first.)


Quote
And install a patch and polygons update Smiley

I just bought the game (from GamersGate), so I assumed that I wouldn't need a patch already. Not so?


The interface is . . . challenging.  Its actually better now that it was in AP Kharkov (not sure if you've played APK).

I bought AP Kharkov, too (I just can't resist a sale), but I haven't played it yet.

Actually, it wasn't until after I bought it that I learned I couldn't save that game during a battle, so I probably won't ever play it. It's just hard to commit to a long gameplay without the chance to leave and come back later.


Quote
I suggest starting with a defensive operation.

Apparently, that's what I did. I just wasn't smart enough to understand that I wasn't supposed to go anywhere.  Smiley


Quote
I would suggest going in the options and having the game pause for every event.  I mean EVERY event.

Quote
My opinion is totally another Grin: Do not try to control whether all, let the AI to fight.

I must say that I like the idea of pausing for every event. (I didn't realize that was an option.) I tend to prefer turn-based games, and I generally do micromanage. That's just me. But I really haven't gotten that far yet. I haven't even seen an enemy. (I've started over a couple of times, but I tried to move my guys both times.)

But when I was trying to move my guys, I moved them by squad at first. Except for the mortar team, which wouldn't move, that seemed to work OK. But since I couldn't get that mortar team to move, I tried selecting the whole... battalion? Anyway, it was like a Chinese fire drill, with people running every which way. Heh, heh. Apparently, the way I was moving my troops wasn't the way the game thought was appropriate. (Maybe the AI was right, but I hate losing that control.)


Quote
If you can crack the UI, you will have one excellent game to enjoy!

Yes, it does look good. Of course, for me, it's still up in the air whether it's more frustrating than fun.  Smiley



In the end, pressing the space bar can be very simple orders menu.

Really? I didn't remember the space bar doing anything. (I'm used to playing games where the space bar pauses the gameplay, so I was constantly doing that by mistake.) But maybe I just didn't notice.

Of course, I wasn't looking for simple orders. I wanted to tell my guys exactly what I wanted them to do. Unfortunately,...

Quote
The main problem is that players want to somehow control each unit individually, it unnaturally for a real war and unnatural for our game. Never do this!
Choose a battle group (some tanks, infantry platoon and any SPGs) and give it a general order - for example, attack in a given direction in such formation and etc...
And forget about it:)

That's going to be hard, for me, but I'll try.


Thanks to everyone who replied! I do appreciate the help.

I'll start over and stay put this time, just letting the Germans attack my guys.

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lavish
Oberst
******
Posts: 208


« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2012, 08:00:27 PM »

@WCG

There is a bug that causes mortar to immobilize sometimes, but rarely -> check the weapon status (select the mortar squad, look upper left corner of info/stat screen). Does there read immobilized/disabled? Otherwise you should be able to move it! Also remember that if you move your mortar, you also "lose" half of your mortar's ammution, because the crew cannot carry all the ammo (ammo boxes are left behind). But don't be afraid - you can go back to ammo boxes anytime.

And be patient! + READ THE MANUAL carefully, as said! Always decide clear goals/objectives for each battle. No need to micromanage too much. Once you learn how to play it, it becomes fairly quick/simple game to play. Smiley
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WCG
Oberleutnant
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Posts: 23


« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2012, 09:47:36 PM »

There is a bug that causes mortar to immobilize sometimes, but rarely -> check the weapon status (select the mortar squad, look upper left corner of info/stat screen). Does there read immobilized/disabled? Otherwise you should be able to move it!

Yes, it did say immobilized. You're saying that's a bug? Now I'm really confused.  Smiley

Seriously, you guys had convinced me that I wasn't supposed to move this bunch of soldiers, that I was supposed to just stay put and defend the ground I'd started on. I still thought it would be wiser, in a situation like that, to try to escape the trap. But I was willing to play the game as it was supposed to be played.

But if this is just a bug, I'm unsure again. I did run all the game updates, just now, and I was going to re-start the game. But now I'm not sure what I'll do. Well, I guess I'll have to decide pretty soon, huh?

Thanks for the info!
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Capt Sam
Major
****
Posts: 99


« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2012, 11:36:59 PM »

The thing that always turned me off in APK was it is truly overwhelming at times.  Not being able to save progress forced me to play very fast in order to even finish a game.  I couldn't micromanage even if I wanted to.  Hopefully Graviteam keeps this feature in all games.  Its a critical feature for any game I play, equal to issuing orders while paused.  Then it should have a message box and a mini-map.  APOS has all this and some more, like controlling units now from the overhead map, an auto-pause feature, and a really great LOS fan.  If a real-time game has these features, I can learn it, and APOS does.

I HATE almost all RTS games.
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andrey12345
Graviteam
Generalfeldmarschall
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Posts: 6642


Jerk developer


« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2012, 12:46:57 AM »

>I just bought the game (from GamersGate), so I assumed that I wouldn't need a patch already. Not so?

At current stage (world wide) of development of computer games they are more service than the final product. The reason is that the cost of developing is large, do everything at once planned no means and it's done so in parts.

Treat the patches do not like as classical patches, but as a piece of the puzzle - bought 5 parts (the initial game), play, through time, a download another 2-3 parts (patch), then a couple more (DLC, another patch), etc Smiley


>I have no idea how to order flares. I guess I'll have to look that up in the manual. But I have yet to see an enemy soldier. I didn't get that far. (However, they were pounding my former positions with artillery while I was leaving - or, in the case of the mortar team, trying to leave - so that had looked like a smart move, at least at first.)


You need an arty spotter (in platoon state) or commander with arty support. In battle select it alone, than select flag in spotter menu (up over squad info menu), than right-click on estimated location of enemys, select flares in same menu and click to start button, After some time, the flares will illuminate the area at the location where you assigned.

Pages 66-67 in manual - Arty spotter panel description (Arty is a short from artillery)


>Really? I didn't remember the space bar doing anything. (I'm used to playing games where the space bar pauses the gameplay, so I was constantly doing that by mistake.) But maybe I just didn't notice.

Select at least 1 squad or vehicle and than press space Smiley
Pages 37-38 in manual - Quick order panel description
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 12:58:07 AM by andrey12345 » Logged

Пользовательский интерфейс будет неуместен на сегодняшних широкоэкранных экранах, а оригинальные карты неопределенного метра и моделирование чисел с низкими лицами заставляют людей действительно не хотеть играть.
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