Possible tanksim-oriented improvements

[GALIX_Thor]

Another example of attached inf to cmd tank radio traffic

Is it possible to have different icons for tanks, IFVs, Guns and infantry ?


Also, it would be great if the Tank Commander could snuggle into and fast switch into the tanks episcopes (I don't know the name in English, sorry).
This functionality would make immersion under the hatch even better, what do people think ?
Currently, T-62 episcopes are hardly usable :
and M-60 episcopes are smaller and even harder to use for situational awareness.

[33lima]

I think the 'snuggle up to viewports/periscopes' idea was discussed here:

http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=11814.0

[Tanker]

I think the 'snuggle up to viewports/periscopes' idea was discussed here:

http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=11814.0

I don't think the vision blocks on the commander's cupola in the M60 are periscopes.  I think they are bulletproof glass.  I think.
The concept of snuggling up to a periscope would differ from snuggling up to a vision block I would think.

[33lima]

I think the 'snuggle up to viewports/periscopes' idea was discussed here:

http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=11814.0

I don't think the vision blocks on the commander's cupola in the M60 are periscopes.  I think they are bulletproof glass.  I think.
The concept of snuggling up to a periscope would differ from snuggling up to a vision block I would think.

You are right about the M60A1 cupola vision blocks. Never sat in one but have sat in the M47, which had fairly similar vision blocks in its lower-sitting cupola. This was an ex-Belgian Army M47, gutted and waiting to be towed out onto the ranges as a hard target, at Otterburn, about 1977. The view was quite good, better than I had expected.

[andrey12345]

Is it possible to have different icons for tanks, IFVs, Guns and infantry ?

They have a different icons, on map of course.

Also, it would be great if the Tank Commander could snuggle into and fast switch into the tanks episcopes (I don't know the name in English, sorry).
This functionality would make immersion under the hatch even better, what do people think ?

Use Tab to zoom in view.

and M-60 episcopes are smaller and even harder to use for situational awareness.

On the M60 not periscopes, but simply spacer from bullet proof glass, there is has even less sense.

[GALIX_Thor]

Viewports, vision blocks were the words I was looking for, thanks 33lima and Tanker.

They have a different icons, on map of course.

It would be useful to have this info without looking at the map. When there are a lot of different enemies around the tank, there are a lot of the same blue bars at the top of the screen.

Use Tab to zoom in view.

Zoom with tab is not powerful enough and it is hard to adjust the view into the vision block correctly with the mouse.
Simple and straight forward full screen views for each vision blocks like this would be very useful for the Tank Commander of T-62 and M-60:

[andrey12345]

It would be useful to have this info without looking at the map. When there are a lot of different enemies around the tank, there are a lot of the same blue bars at the top of the screen.

This is _direction_ indicator not cheeting toolbar or somthing like 1D map. For directions only, not for icons.

Every tick is a temporary mark for the reported targets to compensate for the limited senses due to the fact that the cockpit on the screen, rather than around the player.
It is not necessary to propose stick here all sorts of crap  .

[33lima]

At first I didn't like the 'Star Wars'-like situational awareness header strip but I am getting used to it and I have to admit it is a clever design, which as Andrey says, compensates for 'MonitorVision'. The conventional tank, turret or compass symbols as used in T-34 v Tiger and Steel Fury are perhaps more intuitive - they look like a tank, or a compass rose - but once you understand the SABOW method, it is less obtrusive and possibly more useful.

I'm glad to see the disappearance of the dreadfull unit markers that used to hang over every unit on the battlefield. Awful, like banners carried by samurai warriors or units in Rome Total War. Total immersion killers. I know some people liked to have the option but I'm glad they are gone. Hah! 

[andrey12345]

Simple and straight forward full screen views for each vision blocks like this would be very useful for the Tank Commander of T-62 and M-60:

At first M60 commander have only 1 periscope and can stuck in it.
At second, groups of periscopes need for a quick around view, and not to consider objects in detail through. If we make the possibility of sticking as in sight, we lost all their purpose.
I agree that perhaps need some fixing for height, perhaps by pressing a button, but not stuck as in sight.

[andrey12345]

The conventional tank, turret or compass symbols as used in T-34 v Tiger and Steel Fury are perhaps more intuitive - they look like a tank, or a compass rose - but once you understand the SABOW method, it is less obtrusive and possibly more useful.

Methods for the mark view, which are used in these games is very poorly especially when you see something in a narrow field of view, such a typical tank sight. If you use them, you never know where the actual mark - the side or may be rear, because all that is beyond the edge of the field of view adheres to the edge. This is very bad.

Big tank compass icon absolutely worst thing too.

I'm glad to see the disappearance of the dreadfull unit markers that used to hang over every unit on the battlefield. Awful, like banners carried by samurai warriors or units in Rome Total War. Total immersion killers. I know some people liked to have the option but I'm glad they are gone. Hah! 

+1 
It seems to me that the problem is that someone needs markers is that now most of these lack the senses yet. And this problem should be solved, rather than markers.

[Tanker]

On the M60 not periscopes, but simply spacer from bullet proof glass, there is has even less sense.

I really doubt the accuracy of this statement.  If they are essentially slits, (protected by glass) then the closer the eye is to the slit, the wider the field of view.  Make a slit in a piece of paper and move in closer and further away from your eye to "see" what I mean.

[Flashburn]

On the M60 not periscopes, but simply spacer from bullet proof glass, there is has even less sense.

I really doubt the accuracy of this statement.  If they are essentially slits, (protected by glass) then the closer the eye is to the slit, the wider the field of view.  Make a slit in a piece of paper and move in closer and further away from your eye to "see" what I mean.

Not really true.  They are periscopes.  The cut in the armor is on top of the turret/hull.  With simple mirrors allowing you to see.  Excellent for getting a feel of what is going on around your vehicle.  Not vary good for spotting anything at range.  FOr that you get your magnified sights. 

Back in the day when I was a gunner on an that silly M1117 for a bit it had 360 degree periscopes and then the day/night sights.   I never stuck my face in the periscopes.  It did not help.  On the move you would just get your face beaten with sharp edges.     So only used for quick peeks around the rear and side of turret.  More when halted.  A lot more.  Most of your time was spent in the gunners sight scanning your sector.  But the ASV M1117 was quite primitive on fire controls.  Turret I believe  is the same as on LVT-7.  At least on tanks you get more than 1 guy in the turret with a commander to also scan and look about.  But spotting things is vary hard with the periscopes at range unless they are kicking up dust, burning, or are just out in the open.  But at close ranges you can totally spot vehicles and people running about.  Then get your turret on them right quick. 

[GALIX_Thor]

This is _direction_ indicator not cheeting toolbar or somthing like 1D map. For directions only, not for icons.

Every tick is a temporary mark for the reported targets to compensate for the limited senses due to the fact that the cockpit on the screen, rather than around the player.
It is not necessary to propose stick here all sorts of crap  .

Ok, I understand.

At first M60 commander have only 1 periscope and can stuck in it.
At second, groups of periscopes need for a quick around view, and not to consider objects in detail through. If we make the possibility of sticking as in sight, we lost all their purpose.
I agree that perhaps need some fixing for height, perhaps by pressing a button, but not stuck as in sight.

A button like this would make things easier, indeed.
But, I still think that the Tank Commander can bring his eyes closer to the vision blocks than Tab zoom view allows.

Excellent for getting a feel of what is going on around your vehicle.  Not vary good for spotting anything at range.

unless they are kicking up dust, burning, or are just out in the open.  But at close ranges you can totally spot vehicles and people running about.  Then get your turret on them right quick.  

This is exactly why  I want to use the vision blocks, I think that the Tank Commander lacks short range and medium range situational awareness when he is under the armor.
If the TC wants to know what is happening around the vehicle, he has to use the periscope and rotate the device left and right, left and right, everytime.
I would like a simple quick peek around the tank with the vision blocks (without rotating the turreted periscope!), clear my doubts about the situation and then go back to the periscope and the main area of interest. Or, if I spot an enemy close at 3 o'clock with the vision block, then I would use the turreted periscope to designate this target to the gunner in emergency.

[Tanker]

On the M60 not periscopes, but simply spacer from bullet proof glass, there is has even less sense.

I really doubt the accuracy of this statement.  If they are essentially slits, (protected by glass) then the closer the eye is to the slit, the wider the field of view.  Make a slit in a piece of paper and move in closer and further away from your eye to "see" what I mean.

Not really true.  They are periscopes.  The cut in the armor is on top of the turret/hull.  With simple mirrors allowing you to see.  Excellent for getting a feel of what is going on around your vehicle.  Not vary good for spotting anything at range.  FOr that you get your magnified sights.  

Back in the day when I was a gunner on an that silly M1117 for a bit it had 360 degree periscopes and then the day/night sights.   I never stuck my face in the periscopes.  It did not help.  On the move you would just get your face beaten with sharp edges.    So only used for quick peeks around the rear and side of turret.  More when halted.  A lot more.  Most of your time was spent in the gunners sight scanning your sector.  But the ASV M1117 was quite primitive on fire controls.  Turret I believe  is the same as on LVT-7.  At least on tanks you get more than 1 guy in the turret with a commander to also scan and look about.  But spotting things is vary hard with the periscopes at range unless they are kicking up dust, burning, or are just out in the open.  But at close ranges you can totally spot vehicles and people running about.  Then get your turret on them right quick.  

Are you talking about the vision blocks lining the circumference of the commanders cupola Flashburn?  Andrey just said they were not periscopes.  They look like direct view "windows".  The physical location looks the same from the interior and the exterior.  If they were periscopes wouldn't the interior "window" be offset from the exterior one?

Thor, I agree. I think the situational awareness afforded to you in the sim is actually less than you might get in the real tank.  I think the tab key view is inadequate and does not represent what you could see if you moved closer to the vision block.

[Flashburn]

On the M60 not periscopes, but simply spacer from bullet proof glass, there is has even less sense.

I really doubt the accuracy of this statement.  If they are essentially slits, (protected by glass) then the closer the eye is to the slit, the wider the field of view.  Make a slit in a piece of paper and move in closer and further away from your eye to "see" what I mean.

Not really true.  They are periscopes.  The cut in the armor is on top of the turret/hull.  With simple mirrors allowing you to see.  Excellent for getting a feel of what is going on around your vehicle.  Not vary good for spotting anything at range.  FOr that you get your magnified sights.  

Back in the day when I was a gunner on an that silly M1117 for a bit it had 360 degree periscopes and then the day/night sights.   I never stuck my face in the periscopes.  It did not help.  On the move you would just get your face beaten with sharp edges.    So only used for quick peeks around the rear and side of turret.  More when halted.  A lot more.  Most of your time was spent in the gunners sight scanning your sector.  But the ASV M1117 was quite primitive on fire controls.  Turret I believe  is the same as on LVT-7.  At least on tanks you get more than 1 guy in the turret with a commander to also scan and look about.  But spotting things is vary hard with the periscopes at range unless they are kicking up dust, burning, or are just out in the open.  But at close ranges you can totally spot vehicles and people running about.  Then get your turret on them right quick.  

Are you talking about the vision blocks lining the circumference of the commanders cupola Flashburn?  Andrey just said they were not periscopes.  They look like direct view "windows".  The physical location looks the same from the interior and the exterior.  If they were periscopes wouldn't the interior "window" be offset from the exterior one?

Thor, I agree. I think the situational awareness afforded to you in the sim is actually less than you might get in the real tank.  I think the tab key view is inadequate and does not represent what you could see if you moved closer to the vision block.

Your right.  M60 commanders cupola is different.  Was thinking everything not m47, m48 or m60.   Or I guess AMX30 too. 

The different is that you can not move your head up and down to get a bit different view angle or with periscopes use the levers to pan up/down. You need to do that on the fly if your vehicle is on a hill or higher/lower elevations around where ever you set those at.  Since its always not where you had it in the motor pool once you get out of the wire.   

[andrey12345]

A button like this would make things easier, indeed.
But, I still think that the Tank Commander can bring his eyes closer to the vision blocks than Tab zoom view allows.

Not in M60, only for forward periscope with rubber lining (of course this is done in the game).

In real life, everything is more complicated, since tankman not need anything to "press" to move from one to another periscope - I think in the game is a realistic representation of turning the head than switching views.
Certainly not without its flaws, yes. But I think need to fix this flaws rather than add some bugs like manual switches

This is exactly why  I want to use the vision blocks, I think that the Tank Commander lacks short range and medium range situational awareness when he is under the armor.
If the TC wants to know what is happening around the vehicle, he has to use the periscope and rotate the device left and right, left and right, everytime.
I would like a simple quick peek around the tank with the vision blocks (without rotating the turreted periscope!), clear my doubts about the situation and then go back to the periscope and the main area of interest. Or, if I spot an enemy close at 3 o'clock with the vision block, then I would use the turreted periscope to designate this target to the gunner in emergency.

So tilt your head back (of course in game through mouse shift ) and in actual patch we can even made a special pose for a quick view in M60 - when the commander tilts his head to make it easier to look through the scopes (switch by Z/C in cockpit view).

[Tanker]

A button like this would make things easier, indeed.
But, I still think that the Tank Commander can bring his eyes closer to the vision blocks than Tab zoom view allows.

Not in M60, only for forward periscope with rubber lining (of course this is done in the game).

In real life, everything is more complicated, since tankman not need anything to "press" to move from one to another periscope - I think in the game is a realistic representation of turning the head than switching views.
Certainly not without its flaws, yes. But I think need to fix this flaws rather than add some bugs like manual switches

This is exactly why  I want to use the vision blocks, I think that the Tank Commander lacks short range and medium range situational awareness when he is under the armor.
If the TC wants to know what is happening around the vehicle, he has to use the periscope and rotate the device left and right, left and right, everytime.
I would like a simple quick peek around the tank with the vision blocks (without rotating the turreted periscope!), clear my doubts about the situation and then go back to the periscope and the main area of interest. Or, if I spot an enemy close at 3 o'clock with the vision block, then I would use the turreted periscope to designate this target to the gunner in emergency.

So tilt your head back (of course in game through mouse shift ) and in actual patch we can even made a special pose for a quick view in M60 - when the commander tilts his head to make it easier to look through the scopes (switch by Z/C in cockpit view).

The field of view (FOV) from those vision blocks that you show in your screen shot could be widened and actually be useful if you would simulate being able to move closer to the vision block.  The present view from them makes them pretty useless and more of a decoration.  The only option to gain any SA is to use F3 external view, which is a bit gamey for purists.

With Track IR implementation I could lean forward in my chair and bring my face closer to the vision block, just like a real commander!
A key/mouse combination could substitute for Track IR for those that don't have it.  
It's not a bug to simulate leaning forward in your seat to get a better view out of the vision block.  Think of it as an added feature!

[andrey12345]

There's no rubber linings, so much close approach is fraught with head injuries. Especially while driving.

[Tanker]

I'd agree with you about during the driving part.  But stationary, I'd be willing to risk a bump on my head to spot an RPG team that was to my left or right.  A serious injury when the tank was not moving  was probably unlikely.

[andrey12345]

There's big dead zones and glasses themselves are located in the depth - you cant to approach close until much flattened head  . In any case, touch the armor, when there is a threat of the shell hit - not a very smart decision.